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Hey all, basically as the title says. I've read many posts and several guides (at least one of them decent enough) looking for help choosing spells for a bard. However, there are some specific things I have trouble grasping and ideas I'd like input on. Bear with me as this will be a long post to give as much info as I can.
I'd like input on rounding out my bard, specifically spell choices and some feats. I'm not necessarily looking to min/max but meet my character's theme while still being effective and fun for my party. I'll go level by level up to character lvl 6 since beyond that seems to far to theorcraft and will depend on table needs.
General info:
Campaign will be using "free archetype" and "gradual ability boost" ruleset
Party will include:
Half-Elf Gunslinger: Sniper - Rogue Dedication
Barbarian (subclass/archetype not decided on yet)
and me Catfolk/Dhampir Bard - Pistol Phenom dedication - will go into Shadowdancer
Us not having a primary "healer" is baked into character creation and our campaign
My bard is a horror themed support bard with a stronger focus on debuffs. Enough damage to get by if needed
Starting Scores:
STR: 10 CON: 14 WIS: 10 DEX: 14 INT: 10 CHA: 18
Trained in: Diplomacy, Deception, Medicine, Performance, Occultism, Stealth, Survival, Society - Gunslinger and Barbarian handle Intimidate Demoralize
-Muse: Maestro (would like to work in Poly for Versatile Performance and Esoteric but don't know which feats to drop)
Feats:
Level 1: Ancestry Feat - Cat's Luck
Level 2: Skill Feat - Bon Mot - feels essential for the Will save and Perception debuffs against my stealth
Level 2: Class Feat - Inspire Competence - maybe multifarious Poly but the +4 aid seems too good to pass up
Level 2: Archetype - Pistol Phenom Dedication - performance based debuffs
Level 3: General Feat - Virtuosic Performer
Level 4: Class Feat - Inspire Defense - again seems to good to pass up
Level 4: Dedication - Gunfire Gauntlet
Level 4: Skill Feat - Escape - for flavor and after gauntlet
Level 5: Ancestry Feat - Taste Blood - Flavor, THP, possible Drained 1 works with guns
Level 6: Class Feat - Dirge of Doom - Pistol Phenom gets a 30ft wide Demoralize later so maybe retrain out of this? Seems too strong not to have a no-save frighten
Level 6: Archetype - Dazzling Bullet - damage and concealment, helps Sniper
Level 6: Skill Feat - >>no idea Battle Medicine? Assurance: Performance?
Somewhere I'd like to take Sign Language for RP purposes but maybe just get that through my background? Idk
Also, Pistol Phenom later gets a feat that can demoralize 30ft so maybe it could replace DoD but would need to either train intimidation or fit multifarious muse so I can use performance with it...maybe retrain DoD for multifarious when I can take Reach for the Sky? Or should I forego Reach for the Sky and keep DoD since it's no-save?
Spells:
Cantrips:
-Summon Instrument - never without a focus item and virtuoso on level up
-Telekinetic Projectile
-Haunting Hymn - for aoe cantrip damage
-Mage Hand or Shield - Shield is obvious but Mage Hand feels so bardy especially when it can start picking up dropped weapons and holding them above the user's head
-Inside Ropes - barbarian and I will use this more for flavor but also rope
>>I tend to avoid any spell with "incapacitate" traits since the things I'd want to use them on would be the ones that they're less effective on<<
level 1 spells:
-Magic Weapon (will retrain once these are more common not sure into what though)
-Phantom pain - would like to signature this but would need it at higher level first
-Command or Animate Dead - love the idea of a zombie rabbit
-Soothe - from maestro muse and signatured
**not a fan of Summon Fey as it feels out of character for this bard regardless of strength
level 2:
-Blood Vendetta - good use of my reaction plus adds weakness for the sniper/pistol skills, and neat combo with gunner gauntlet
-illusory creature/Animated Assualt - signatured - I like AA better but the creature seems more useful
-<can't decide> - I hear illusory image talked up a lot but why when I have the creature since the image is only really useful at this level with the added sensory features - dispel magic, animated assault, or telekinetic maneuver are what I usually get stuck between
Level 3:
-Shadow Projectile - another good reaction spell and direct support for sniper
-Slow - signatured so I can cast it more often
-Rouse Skeletons - good AOE difficult terrain that is moveable
Any feedback is appreciated with spells to swap, dump, take later. Pernicious Poltergeist, Vampiric Maiden, Implement of Doom and Mirror Misfortune look intriguing.
Future spells will be Sleep but only at spell level 4 when it's useful, Invisibility also at spell lvl 4 to avoid combat break, and Haste but at lvl 7 maybe signatured then? Please don't recommend spells like Fly or Levitate; I know they're really strong and really good but I'm tired of taking them so often.
Sorry for the text wall but I really do appreciate any help and feedback.
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Calm emotions to handle mooks
Synesthesia to debuff bosses
Maze for late game
Silence 4 to turn off enemy casters
Illusory object to remove enemy actions
Dimension door
Fly
True seeing
Wall of force
True target
Overwhelming presence
Are all worth considering regardless of table as they're universally useful.
Your list looks really close to what I'd recommend.
I'd drop Haunting Hymn in favor of Animated Assault once you can get it. It's more reliable AoE damage and the sustain aspect also creates area denial. I've kept it running just to dissuade enemies / force weird movement from them. Daze is more reliably useful with it's range and combos with your Bon Mot and your allies Intimidate.
If you're going to do Animate Dead you need to make it Signature and expect it to come from your top slots to remain relevant. There are some pretty good undead options these days for utility, but you'll still need higher slots. I'd probably avoid this or lean into it heavier.
I probably wouldn't start running Dispel Magic until level 3+. It may come up beforehand but you really want it in your top or second highest level spell slots anyway and magic effects you need to counteract aren't all that common in the 4-5 range.
Rouse Skeletons and Animated Assault are competing in functions (minor AoE with passive area denial/control targeting Reflex). Probably pick one or the other.
It's not always the best plan, but I like to make sure I have a Reflex, Fort, and Will save targeting options in my top level or signature slots. Slow is obviously your best Fortitude option, Animated Assault/Rouse Skeletons is your Reflex... you're lacking a strong Will target spell. Consider Roaring Applause: it's a will spell which will sync with your Bon Mot and Intimidate, gives you a sustain option, and which can create slowed 1. If your Barbarian takes AoO it's even better.
I'd hold off on Shadow Projectile until you move up in spell levels. It's fine to dump on lower level slots but when you first hit 3, there's more potent / powerful things you can be doing. Time Jump has a lot of utility to be able to position better. It's definitely something you'll want to consider having at some point.
Edit: You may want to look at the Spell Trickster archetype instead of Pistol Phenom. A lot of your spell choices merge into it with Summon...
I'm not sure what you mean drop Haunting Hymn for Animated Assault since Haunting Hymn is a cantrip. I liked HH as an multi-target cantrip but daze probably is better just for the stun even if it's only on an unlikely crit fail.
Honestly I'm probably just going to drop Animate Dead. I love it's flavor but since I don't have room for Final Sacrifice it's just not worth an early game investment at least, especially since Soothe takes my level 1 signature.
I agree with mixing saves and I try to do the same. Right now Phantom Pain is my Will save spell doing up front damage, persistent damage, and sickened 1. Though with Roaring Applause, when I sustain it I can target a different creature each time right? It doesn't have to be the same one as the original cast?
I get your point with Shadow Projectile. I love it's combo potential with the sniper making a target flat-footed but I can replace it with Roaring Applause until I'm higher level.
I looked at spell trickster a lot actually. But since I'm going into shadow dancer at level 8 the best uses would be the Forceful Mage Hand and the Frighten with sleep; both effects I'd have numerous other ways to inflict (admittedly cantrip movement is nice though). My main drawback with the Summon Symphony part is that it only works once per day per target even if they succeed. The sleep and mage hand push is nice, but the dazzle from the pistol is damage plus a conceal for everybody and the gauntlet is a minus to attack rolls against the barbarian who will most likely be taking the brunt of attacks. Plus, while the gun actions do compete a little bit with my spells the pierce damage works with the Taste Blood feat for a Temp HP shield plus possible drained. I don't know where I'd fit in the Reach class feat to be able to give them Temp HP because I'd lose one of the cantrip buffs.
Calm emotions to handle mooks
Synesthesia to debuff bosses
Maze for late game
Silence 4 to turn off enemy casters
Illusory object to remove enemy actions
Dimension door
Fly
True seeing
Wall of force
True target
Overwhelming presenceAre all worth considering regardless of table as they're universally useful.
Synthesia, Maze, and Silence are definitely being taken (can't wait to heighten silence on the barbarian).
Can we talk about Illusory Object? I hear it talked up all the time and I can see the idea behind it using an enemy action to disbelieve it but without casting it at second level it has no sensory effects so, in my experience, it just immediately gives a roll to disbelieve. And this has never been clear, once one enemy disbelieves it can't they freely tell their allies and then they just walk through the illusion or is my experience not the common play? At spell level 2 it's competing with illusory creature which can cost the same enemy actions while flanking or targeting a weakness. Outside of combat I can talk through it and have it look like someone else; just seems to have more utility while accomplishing the same job most of the time. Yeah the single hit popping it sucks but it that enough reason to swap it out for object?
...Your list looks really close to what I'd recommend.
I'd drop Haunting Hymn in favor of Animated Assault once you can get it. It's more reliable AoE damage and the sustain aspect also creates area denial. I've kept it running just to dissuade enemies / force weird movement from them. Daze is more reliably useful with it's range and combos with your Bon Mot and your allies Intimidate.
If you're going to do Animate Dead you need to make it Signature and expect it to come from your top slots to remain relevant. There are some pretty good undead options these days for utility, but you'll still need higher slots. I'd probably avoid this or lean into it heavier.
I probably wouldn't start running Dispel Magic until level 3+. It may come up beforehand but you really want it in your top or second highest level spell slots anyway and magic effects you need to counteract aren't all that common in the 4-5 range.
Rouse Skeletons and Animated Assault are competing in functions (minor AoE with passive area denial/control targeting Reflex). Probably pick one or the other.
It's not always the best plan, but I like to make sure I have a Reflex, Fort, and Will save targeting options in my top level or signature slots. Slow is obviously your best Fortitude option, Animated Assault/Rouse Skeletons is your Reflex... you're lacking a strong Will target spell. Consider Roaring Applause: it's a will spell which will sync with your Bon Mot and Intimidate, gives you a sustain option, and which can create slowed 1. If your Barbarian takes AoO it's even better.
I'd hold off on Shadow Projectile until you move up in spell levels. It's fine to dump on lower level slots but when you first hit 3, there's more potent / powerful things you can be doing. Time Jump has a lot of utility to be able to position better. It's definitely something you'll want to consider having at some point.
Edit: You may want to look at the Spell Trickster archetype instead of Pistol Phenom. A lot of your spell
Nevermind my Roaring Applause question. For some reason I thought it had a round limit to the clapping. I'll definitely be taking that before shadow projectile and I'll save that until I have some higher slots.
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Illusory object at level 1 is still visual. Just make your illusion a wall of stone and they'll need to interact with it or seek to get a save. Move up, interact is two actions lost. Even if they save easily or automatically, the damage is done.
Is it going to be a 3 person party or is ir just that only 3 people decided on their characters yet? You will probably face a somewhat reduced amount of enemies if that's the case, so I would pick a bit less AoE than usual.
Even if I agree on Calm Emotions being really good, it is a bit akwkard for spontaneous casters, since you need to either signature it or swap it to top slots every other level. I would heavily consider if you decide to go for the polimath book in the end (if you are feeling min-maxy, with the book you can even prepare the spell only at odd levels so the chances of incap not being relevant are higher).
2nd level Illusory Object is a bit unclear on how it works because the rules for it are actually here. At level 2, they only get to "save" (perception roll vs spell DC) if they seek the illusion. Even if they know it is an illusion, they still need to seek and pass the check. It is a really good spell, and it has used both in and out of combat (not long ago I used it as visual support to narrate some stuff for an NPC haha. Magic Powerpoint).
I also have to agree on Roaring Applause/Hideous Laughter. The effect is really powerful, you can get by by wanding one of them later, but it is probably in your best interest not to do so. RA is specially useful if the Barbarian is going to pick AoO.
I would replace the skeletons with Shadow Projectile once you get 5th or 6th level spells and not bother heightening it, tbh. There are more reflex options there, and if you go for telekinetic maneuver, you always have a Reflex targetting option ready to go.
As for Dirge, I would not skip it if you are the only caster, even if your allies are going to use Demoralize.
The reason I never went into more detail on my guide about spells is because I didn't want to make the guide too long and boring and at the time there were already some good and complete spell guides out there. Even if I don't 100% agree with all of it (as normal, agreeing on the internet is not allowed), I can recommend a lot Gortle's spell guide if you want to read more resources on the subject. That said, feel free to ask me as well, it is always a pleasure to help another Pathfinder enjoyer.
Edit: First time I'm contemplating Pistol Phenom for a Bard, ngl. Never payed much attention to the archetype.
Dazzling Bullet asking for 2 different rolls sucks a bit, but it is just 1 action, so as long as you treat it as a once per fight thing it should be decent.
Reach for the Sky sealing reactions is nice, it might be good for a lingering IC turn. It combos really well with Versatile Performance as well.
Are you lifting the archetype feat requirements in some way? I'm not very high on the level 4 feats tbh, if you are allowed to pick a second archetype there, I would.
Is it going to be a 3 person party or is ir just that only 3 people decided on their characters yet? You will probably face a somewhat reduced amount of enemies if that's the case, so I would pick a bit less AoE than usual.
Even if I agree on Calm Emotions being really good, it is a bit akwkard for spontaneous casters, since you need to either signature it or swap it to top slots every other level. I would heavily consider if you decide to go for the polimath book in the end (if you are feeling min-maxy, with the book you can even prepare the spell only at odd levels so the chances of incap not being relevant are higher).
2nd level Illusory Object is a bit unclear on how it works because the rules for it are actually here. At level 2, they only get to "save" (perception roll vs spell DC) if they seek the illusion. Even if they know it is an illusion, they still need to seek and pass the check. It is a really good spell, and it has used both in and out of combat (not long ago I used it as visual support to narrate some stuff for an NPC haha. Magic Powerpoint).
I also have to agree on Roaring Applause/Hideous Laughter. The effect is really powerful, you can get by by wanding one of them later, but it is probably in your best interest not to do so. RA is specially useful if the Barbarian is going to pick AoO.
I would replace the skeletons with Shadow Projectile once you get 5th or 6th level spells and not bother heightening it, tbh. There are more reflex options there, and if you go for telekinetic maneuver, you always have a Reflex targetting option ready to go.
As for Dirge, I would not skip it if you are the only caster, even if your allies are going to use Demoralize.
The reason I never went into more detail on my guide about spells is because I didn't want to make the guide too long and boring and at the time there were already some good and complete spell guides out there. Even if I don't 100% agree with all of it (as normal, agreeing on...
Yeah the plan is just the 3 of us for this campaign.
I will be picking up Roaring Applause based on the recommendations here (I don't know why I originally thought it had a duration other than sustain). I'll go hideous laughter to start and retrain it to RA.
Shadow Projectile I'll take at higher level and yeah I'm not looking to heighten it since it'll primarily be used for the snipers One Shot, One Kill.
We're using the free archetype ruleset so I'll get a bard feat and an archetype feat each time. At level 8 I'll be going Shadowdancer so was looking at archetypes to fill for the level 2 - 6. I looked at shadow caster and liked the cloak and minion but seemed redundant once I got dancer access and also very focus point heavy which eats into Lingering and Heroics. Also looked at Spell Trickster as mentioned above and then found Pistol Phenom.
My last GM (who has been my GM for nearly 10 years) really liked throwing "anti-magic" obstacles at the party, sometimes the land we were in just naturally repressed magic entirely and was super strict when it came to checking illusions (i.e. a stone wall appearing without making any kind of sound of rocks falling merits a disbelief). I got tired of basically not being able to do anything during the majority of the last campaign which ultimately lead me to not play for a year and find the new GM I'll be playing with.
Pistol Phenom gives me options to still debuff should similar situations arise while still only needing the performance focus I'm going for anyway. Spells are going to be my main focus but as you mentioned a once a fight dazzle that can proc Taste Blood on top of it could be a powerful hit.
Gunners Gauntlet gives the target a minus when attacking my barbarian which combos with Blood Vendetta and Rousing Skeletons since it cause difficult terrain that I can move too, hesitant to completely remove the spell for that option.
I would not skip Dirge of Doom after really thinking about it some more. I'd only retrain it to multifarious muse for Versatile Performance once I got Reach for the Sky at level 12 since it would have the same effect plus no reactions. But actually looking at it more I'd probably forego polymath and reach for the sky entirely and take Hot Foot. It applies flat-footed for entire party, blocks reactions (not just ones requiring hands), and reduces reflex saves.
The GM thing sounds miserable, I'm sorry you had to deal with that. Hope you have lots of fun with this new GM.
To clear one thing up, I meant not heightening Rouse Skeletons, not Shadow Projectile (To be precise, I wouldn't heighten any of them). That said, if you really want to have both at some point and still have Slow and Roaring Applause, you can change the skeletons for Shadow Projectile once you get level 5 spells and learn Rouse Skeletons there. Occult is a bit lacking in good difficult terrain options that are easy to use (the other ones can friendly fire in a really bad way if your allies are not using Spell Immunity or something similar), closest thing to Rouse Skeletons is Telekinetic Bombardment, and not only it is level 7, but its difficult terrain part is the least impressive part of the spell.
Also, I think there has been a little misunderstanding. As far as I know, you need to use a bite attack to get to use Taste Blood mid-combat. You can always work with your GM for that, though. A gun that let's you drain enemies from afar could be a good reward for your character along the way. It would also be super cool, like using blood draining magical bullets or something.
The GM thing sounds miserable, I'm sorry you had to deal with that. Hope you have lots of fun with this new GM.
To clear one thing up, I meant not heightening Rouse Skeletons, not Shadow Projectile (To be precise, I wouldn't heighten any of them). That said, if you really want to have both at some point and still have Slow and Roaring Applause, you can change the skeletons for Shadow Projectile once you get level 5 spells and learn Rouse Skeletons there. Occult is a bit lacking in good difficult terrain options that are easy to use (the other ones can friendly fire in a really bad way if your allies are not using Spell Immunity or something similar), closest thing to Rouse Skeletons is Telekinetic Bombardment, and not only it is level 7, but its difficult terrain part is the least impressive part of the spell.
Also, I think there has been a little misunderstanding. As far as I know, you need to use a bite attack to get to use Taste Blood mid-combat. You can always work with your GM for that, though. A gun that let's you drain enemies from afar could be a good reward for your character along the way. It would also be super cool, like using blood draining magical bullets or something.
I'm hopeful because I loved illusions before that GM experience.
Yes I wouldn't heighten either skeletons or projectile. Both would be for their debuff over damage (projectile for flat-footed to assist sniper and skeletons for the terrain especially is I'm making enemies have a minus to hit anyone other than me). Telekinetic Bombardment I did see but spell level 7 is too far away to theory at this point and honestly I've never played that high unfortunately.
About Taste Blood, yes a fang attack is the usual but it also states if a target is "restrained or unconscious" it requires a strike that dealt pierce damage which the gun would. If I choose a willing target they don't need to under a status though I still need to hit with a piercing strike
Oh, I thought you meant using the feat against enemies with the pistol, my apologies.
Oh, I thought you meant using the feat against enemies with the pistol, my apologies.
I do mean that:
To drink a creature's blood, either your last action must have been a fangs Strike that damaged the target, or the target must be restrained or unconscious and your last action must have been a Strike that dealt piercing or slashing damage to them. If the target is willing, they don't need to be restrained or unconscious for the latter.Emphasis mine. If an enemy is restrained or unconscious (say due to a sleep spell >:) ) and I successfully shoot them with my flintlock or dueling pistol (1d4 P or 1d6 P) Taste Blood can proc.
I know, I know. I just thought you missed the fangs part and think it applied to any strike for the first part. The restrained condition is hard to get without a dedicated grappler afterall. Guess the barbariam can take care of that.
Bad assumption on my part, basically.
I know, I know. I just thought you missed the fangs part and think it applied to any strike for the first part. The restrained condition is hard to get without a dedicated grappler afterall. Guess the barbariam can take care of that.
Bad assumption on my part, basically.
The entire reason I'm taking Inside Ropes was at his request and who am I to say no haha. No idea the full extent he plans to do with but as a horror focus debuffer who looks forward to putting heightened silence on him I can hardly wait
I'm not sure what you mean drop Haunting Hymn for Animated Assault since Haunting Hymn is a cantrip. I liked HH as an multi-target cantrip but daze probably is better just for the stun even if it's only on an unlikely crit fail.Sorry, Haunting Hymn provides you an AoE damage spell early on which is mostly useful for targeting weakness when it comes up or maybe fighting a bunch of clustered lower level enemies -- but these situations aren't so common generally that Hymn ever really works out being a better option than just Telekinetic Projectile something, or doing a Bon-Mot Daze. So I was suggesting keeping the cantrip until you can get a different AoE (Animated Assault being the first on your short list, though Concordant Choir is also a very flexible option) and rely on that for those situations. This would free up your cantrip for Daze or ... anything else? I just think in practice you're going to have a mostly dead cantrip slot in Haunting Hymn.
Ah, yeah that makes sense. Honestly I took Haunting Hymn almost solely for name value so dropping won't bother me. I also think I'm sleeping too much on daze even if the stun locked behind critical