Is there anything stopping me from using these abilities in conjunction to bury the summoner in a saferoom hollow during a fight?
Could I use them to bypass obstacles such as a door or wall? Burrow to the other side, Transpose, then send the eidolon over again.
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Is there anything stopping me from using these abilities in conjunction to bury the summoner in a saferoom hollow during a fight?
Could I use them to bypass obstacles such as a door or wall? Burrow to the other side, Transpose, then send the eidolon over again.
Yeah, you wouldn't have line of effect to do it, and the ability doesn't have anything that gets around that like Teleport or heightened Dimension Door do. I'd never pull that regularly, and it might still work, but if a player came to me planning to entomb their character every fight for some sort of cheese and acting like that's just how the rules work, I'd have them show me what allows breaking line of effect.
That said, the merge form ability Meld Into Eidolon is designed pretty specifically for "get your Summoner places your Eidolon can get to" and "keep your Summoner out of the fight", and that's a first level feat, so this seems totally reasonable in practice.
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I don't think Transpose needs Line of Effect. There's no target of the ability, it just happens, wherever your Eidolon may be.
It's pretty neat. You could enter a social situation and if things go wrong, suddenly a massive creature could appear in your space while you're in a safe location within 100 feet.
The idea that you might need line of effect for teleportation effects strikes me as unintuitive.
AFAICT it is a gap in the Eidolon rules.
Manifest Eidolon doesn't have anything on it which says its gets around the line of effect rules. But it is clear from the general text that the Eidolon exists in another plane. So it obviously has to get around the line of effect rules or it just doesn't work.
Transpose has all the same traits and problems. However it still would be functional if line of effect applied.
It is up to your GM. I see them going both ways on this one.
I don't think Transpose needs Line of Effect. There's no target of the ability, it just happens, wherever your Eidolon may be.
Line of Effect applies even if there is no explicit target.
You usually need an unobstructed path to the target of a spell, the origin point of an area, or the place where you create something with a spellIn this case Line of Effect from the Summoner to the Eidolon is a potentially reasonable requirement.
The idea that you might need line of effect for teleportation effects strikes me as unintuitive.
Like I said, I wouldn't run it that way. I'm pretty sure Tree Stride breaks if line-of-effect is required. There are some teleportation effects that explicitly remove line-of-effect from requirements when heightened (Thoughtful Gift, which does target a creature). There are also some teleportation effects that go out of their way to say you need line of effect for that particular feat or item (Swap Reflections, Golden Spur).
It's purely a response to your question of "is there anything that stops this?", which is, "a pedantic reading of the line-of-effect rules". (Even then, the rules just say line of effect is usually required.)
But, allowing it is totally in line with a first-level feat's effects, and lets teleport effects work like you'd expect.
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It's purely a response to your question of "is there anything that stops this?", which is, "a pedantic reading of the line-of-effect rules". (Even then, the rules just say line of effect is usually required.)
If you want to be even more pedantic, couldn't you argue that Transpose is not a spell, not creating an effect, doesn't have an area, and doesn't have a target, and therefore you can just skip over LoE entirely because none of the conditions LoE references apply?
Transpose by itself is an interesting get out of jail card.
If the jail cell barrier is the normal bar walls that you can reach your hands through, then you can
* walk up to the wall
* unsummon the Eidolon if needed
* Summon the Eidolon to an adjacent location on the opposite side of the wall
* Transpose to put yourself on the other side of the jail wall and the Eidolon inside again
* Unsummon the Eidolon
* Resummon the Eidolon if desired
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I don't think Transpose needs Line of Effect. There's no target of the ability, it just happens, wherever your Eidolon may be.Line of Effect applies even if there is no explicit target.
You usually need an unobstructed path to the target of a spell, the origin point of an area, or the place where you create something with a spell
In this case Line of Effect from the Summoner to the Eidolon is a potentially reasonable requirement.
You don't target the Eidolon when you use Transpose though, you just switch places.
If the jail cell barrier is the normal bar walls that you can reach your hands through, then you can
* walk up to the wall
* unsummon the Eidolon if needed
* Summon the Eidolon to an adjacent location on the opposite side of the wall.
I wouldn't consider the other side of a wall to be "adjacent" to you though. On the other side of steel bars sure, but even a standard wall would be too thick to consider creatures on the other side to be adjacent in my mind.
I don't think Transpose needs Line of Effect. There's no target of the ability, it just happens, wherever your Eidolon may be.Line of Effect applies even if there is no explicit target.
You usually need an unobstructed path to the target of a spell, the origin point of an area, or the place where you create something with a spell
In this case Line of Effect from the Summoner to the Eidolon is a potentially reasonable requirement.You don't target the Eidolon when you use Transpose though, you just switch places.
?? Didn't I just say no target??
I'm sorry but a response like this make me question if you read my text, or just who are you responding to.
I think the premise of a "saferoom hollow" has no support. It'd be more like an unmarked grave. Even if the Eidelon were larger than the Summoner, the default is that the tunneled areas collapse.
And while the tactic would alleviate some risk, if the Eidelon goes unconscious and disappears, you're (effectively) dead. So much safer in the long run to remain a room back or Meld. (Unless going unconscious is rare for your melee types, in which case the tactic's unnecessary.)
Plus there's the whole point of the Summoner being about dishing out a spell on the same round as attacking like a martial. It'd be like playing a Magus who eschews Spellstrike; functional, but limiting.
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?? Didn't I just say no target??
I'm sorry but a response like this make me question if you read my text, or just who are you responding to.
You cited: "You usually need an unobstructed path to the target of a spell, the origin point of an area, or the place where you create something with a spell"
Transpose does none of these. You do not target anything, there is no area created by the ability, and you don't create anything. You use the power of the connection between you and your Eidolon to swap places with them in physical space, that's it.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
?? Didn't I just say no target??
I'm sorry but a response like this make me question if you read my text, or just who are you responding to.
You cited: "You usually need an unobstructed path to the target of a spell, the origin point of an area, or the place where you create something with a spell"
Transpose does none of these. You do not target anything, there is no area created by the ability, and you don't create anything. You use the power of the connection between you and your Eidolon to swap places with them in physical space, that's it.
create something is not a defined game term. In fact it is just totally lose text that can mean anything. What you are creating in this case is an effect. There is an actual location where something happens. In this case two locations.
The point is line of effect applies to where ever you are having an effect, unless the spell says otherwise.
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You're making this so much more complicated than it needs to be, abeit, your tactic is more flexible with regard to your choice of 1st level Feat and Eidolon type.
Step 1) Make a Summoner, any Ancestry, it doesn't matter.
Step 2) Get permission to use a Ghost Eidolon.
Step 3) Take Meld with Eidolon.
Step 4) Phase through any wall or even floor of any thickness less than your total remaining move possible move speed every round.
You will always be effectively incorporeal and able to phase through creatures, objects, and most structures. You will never lose your line of effect because, well, you are your own line of effect, and you need not worry about any pesky jailers, risk of tunnel collapse, it costs WAY fewer resources (You invest in one Feat and you're done) or basically any other obstacle from stopping you from tunneling without even leaving a trace you were present in the first place.
Of any thickness? It was my understanding that incorporeal creatures in this edition can't go through anything wider than their space.
As far as I can tell, both types of Phantom Eidolon and the Undead Eidolon are all corporeal creatures.
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They are incorporeal, they have have a slightly modified version of it, the Ghost Eidolon has the following:
While most ghosts are bound to the site where they died or were buried, some instead find themselves bound to specific items, such as a particular piece of jewelry, article of clothing, pet's collar, or a stone from a building in which it dwelled. These items, known as anchors, were important to the ghost in life, or critical to the events of their death and haunting.
A creature with anchored incorporeality has the incorporeal trait, meaning it can move through physical creatures and such creatures can move through it. It can't attempt Strength-based checks (such as Grapple) against corporeal creatures and corporeal creatures can't attempt such checks against it. Though incorporeal, a creature with anchored incorporeality can travel no more than 60 feet from its anchor and must maintain line of effect to the anchor. This typically prevents it from moving through walls. Unlike many other incorporeal creatures, a creature with anchored incorporeality doesn't have resistance to all damage or immunity to precision damage.
A character with an animal companion or familiar that has anchored incorporeality can transfer the anchor to a new item with a special ritual. This requires spending 1 week in concert with the companion to create a new anchor. A character who knows this technique might be able to adapt it to transfer a ghost's Site Bound ability (or similar restriction) to tie it to an anchor instead of a place.
From what I can tell, you meld, you take their form, and your stuff is absorbed including the bound object that would itself also become incorporeal and move with you. The limits talk about how it typically prevents going through walls because of the line of effect but as you and your equipment are absorbed into the Eidolon it does pretty consistently seem to negate any and all considerations to losing the LOE to the Anchor item at all times that you're melded so that limitation is completely eliminated and you can just float for free everywhere.
As for "shunting" rules, I'm a bit ignorant of how those should or might apply so I chalk it up to ensuring you don't end your turn inside a solid object, wall, floor, etc and you're good. I do see the normal Incorporeal Trait in general and it says they can pass through walls pretty succinctly, it also makes note that if you end your turn inside an object you get slowed 1 which... all things considered, seems like a GREAT option if you'd like to just stop your movement inside say, a giant statue, as a defensive measure.
I'd love to see a good hole poked in this as I don't think it's supposed to work but I'm not too sure I found one yet. I'd love to know your thoughts on this, but I'm afraid I'm running into derail territory, sorry!
There is an Undead Eidolon, but it appears to be corporeal - at least by default.
Your eidolon is an undead spirit pulled from the Ethereal Plane or Negative Energy Plane, embodied, and bound to your life force
It could be allowed to create an Undead Eidolon that is incorporeal - which could be really cool - but probably needs some houserule level adjudication.
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I know I brought it up in the first place, but here are a few reasons you shouldn't actually run it as line of effect:
- The line of effect rules start with "usually". Teleportation is absolutely one of the things that people expect to be an exception.
- Tree Stride, a CRB teleportation spell with a five mile range, doesn't specify line of effect (and furthermore only works in areas with trees, so visibility is expected to be limited). So I do think there's an expectation even in the rules that teleportation needs an additional reason to require line of effect.
- The feat's range is already limited, and the destinations are pre-determined. When teleportation effects are limited to line of effect, it seems to be when explicitly stated, or when you need to pick a target.
- Most importantly, it's a decently high level feat, and the GM should err on the side of fun, especially when both interpretation s are plausible. Most of the shenanigans could be accomplished with Meld With Eidolon much earlier (albeit with much higher action cost in combat), and swapping in or out of sight is one of the few interesting tricks this could add. (If a player is using it to make the game less fun, well...)