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I am humbly submitting a request for a FAQ after a debate in the Facebook Pathfinder Society group.
I was wanting to get some durable Shurekin for my monk but when I asked about it on Facebook a debate sprung up because while all items are legal one person in the group argued strongly that because only arrows are statted only arrows are allowed in PFS.
The other side says it should be allowed because on page 20 of the Alchemy Manuel it says
"While Kyonin archers prefer alchemical arrows to other missile weapons,
characters can infuse other ammunition and thrown weapons that deal piercing damage (such as crossbow bolts, darts, and shuriken) with alchemical effects."
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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Durable arrows are classified in the Alchemy Manual as alchemical arrows.
Other Types of Ammunition: While Kyonin archers prefer alchemical arrows to other missile weapons, characters can infuse other ammunition and thrown weapons that deal piercing damage (such as crossbow bolts, darts, and shuriken) with alchemical effects. Aside from differing base statistics, these alternative types of alchemical ammunition have effects identical to the alchemical arrows listed here. However, firearm ammunition can’t be imbued with alchemical ingredients, nor can ammunition types that don’t deal piercing damage.
The text doesn't say that other types of alchemical ammunition are more expensive than arrows. You wouldn't charge more for a bleeding crossbow bolt than you would for a bleeding arrow (160 gp according to alchemy manual)? At least I wouldn't.
IMO one durable crossbow bolt costs the same as one durable arrow: 1 gp.
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Arrows are 1gp/20 or 1gp ea for durable
Bolts are 1gp/10 (extrapolated price if 2gp ea)
Sling Bullets are 1sp/10 (2sp ea)
Shuriken are 1gp/5 (4gp ea)
Firearm Bullets are 1gp ea (20gp ea or 2gp for gunslingers)
Alchemical cartridges are 12gp ea (240gp ea or 120gp ea for gunslingers)
That's my extrapolation.
But the actual price might be totally different. Like a durable paper cartridge. Is it really that expensive? Should a durable firearm bullet really be that cheap? What about a durable adamantine bullet?
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Durable arrows are classified in the Alchemy Manual as alchemical arrows.
Other Types of Ammunition: While Kyonin archers prefer alchemical arrows to other missile weapons, characters can infuse other ammunition and thrown weapons that deal piercing damage (such as crossbow bolts, darts, and shuriken) with alchemical effects. Aside from differing base statistics, these alternative types of alchemical ammunition have effects identical to the alchemical arrows listed here. However, firearm ammunition can’t be imbued with alchemical ingredients, nor can ammunition types that don’t deal piercing damage.The text doesn't say that other types of alchemical ammunition are more expensive than arrows. You wouldn't charge more for a bleeding crossbow bolt than you would for a bleeding arrow (160 gp according to alchemy manual)? At least I wouldn't.
IMO one durable crossbow bolt costs the same as one durable arrow: 1 gp.
I argued in the Facebook group that other type of ammunition are PFS legal too, whether it changes the price is another question (I would argue, that a changed price is covered under "different base statistics" so you would adjust the price accordingly).
Of course considering in the cost of those items, you might as well use the same price for everything. Since they are alchemical items, Alchemists can craft them for 1/3 of the price , which leads to the conclusion that the cost of the base ammunition is not that relevant.
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Durable arrows are classified in the Alchemy Manual as alchemical arrows.
Other Types of Ammunition: While Kyonin archers prefer alchemical arrows to other missile weapons, characters can infuse other ammunition and thrown weapons that deal piercing damage (such as crossbow bolts, darts, and shuriken) with alchemical effects. Aside from differing base statistics, these alternative types of alchemical ammunition have effects identical to the alchemical arrows listed here. However, firearm ammunition can’t be imbued with alchemical ingredients, nor can ammunition types that don’t deal piercing damage.The text doesn't say that other types of alchemical ammunition are more expensive than arrows. You wouldn't charge more for a bleeding crossbow bolt than you would for a bleeding arrow (160 gp according to alchemy manual)? At least I wouldn't.
IMO one durable crossbow bolt costs the same as one durable arrow: 1 gp.
I argued in the Facebook group that other type of ammunition are PFS legal too, whether it changes the price is another question (I would argue, that a changed price is covered under "different base statistics" so you would adjust the price accordingly).
Of course considering in the cost of those items, you might as well use the same price for everything. Since they are alchemical items, Alchemists can craft them for 1/3 of the price , which leads to the conclusion that the cost of the base ammunition is not that relevant.
However, precedent in PFS, is if the price/stats isn't specifically listed, we aren't allowed to extrapolate it.
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Firearm Bullets are 1gp ea (20gp ea or 2gp for gunslingers)
Alchemical cartridges are 12gp ea (240gp ea or 120gp ea for gunslingers)
That's my extrapolation.
But the actual price might be totally different. Like a durable paper cartridge. Is it really that expensive? Should a durable firearm bullet really be that cheap? What about a durable adamantine bullet?
"firearm ammunition can’t be imbued with alchemical ingredients"
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I think Andrew's position is a bit extreme. We are given three specific forms of ammunition that can be made Durable ("crossbow bolts, darts, and shuriken"). Their effects, including price, are identical to that of a Durable Arrow (1gp/each).
It doesn't matter that mundane Crossbow Bolts cost twice as much as mundane Arrows. The text doesn't ask us to figure out a complicated pricing ratio. Durable Crossbow Bolts, Durable Darts, and Durable Shuriken all cost the same as Durable Arrows.
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Some of the ammunition in 'Ranged Tactics Toolbox' was similarly listed as arrows, but specified that they were also available in bolt form... with no mention of a different cost. Those have been PFS legal for many months now. Anyone know if there is a precedent on the alternate ammo price question from those?
Given that neither book says anything about price differences, I'd assume that the cost was the same for all forms of ammo.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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However, precedent in PFS, is if the price/stats isn't specifically listed, we aren't allowed to extrapolate it.Durable arrows are classified in the Alchemy Manual as alchemical arrows.
Other Types of Ammunition: While Kyonin archers prefer alchemical arrows to other missile weapons, characters can infuse other ammunition and thrown weapons that deal piercing damage (such as crossbow bolts, darts, and shuriken) with alchemical effects. Aside from differing base statistics, these alternative types of alchemical ammunition have effects identical to the alchemical arrows listed here. However, firearm ammunition can’t be imbued with alchemical ingredients, nor can ammunition types that don’t deal piercing damage.The text doesn't say that other types of alchemical ammunition are more expensive than arrows. You wouldn't charge more for a bleeding crossbow bolt than you would for a bleeding arrow (160 gp according to alchemy manual)? At least I wouldn't.
IMO one durable crossbow bolt costs the same as one durable arrow: 1 gp.
I argued in the Facebook group that other type of ammunition are PFS legal too, whether it changes the price is another question (I would argue, that a changed price is covered under "different base statistics" so you would adjust the price accordingly).
Of course considering in the cost of those items, you might as well use the same price for everything. Since they are alchemical items, Alchemists can craft them for 1/3 of the price , which leads to the conclusion that the cost of the base ammunition is not that relevant.
I agree, that extrapolation is usually not an option, but in this case I can't shake the feeling, that we are either supposed to do so, or that that we are supposed to use the fixed price.
Of course arguing and guessing what the additional resources what to tell us in this case (the format isn't very well suited for corner cases like this one), is really not all that useful.
Given the situation, I think it is perfectly reasonable to argue both points of view, obviously I prefer my own interpretation since it offers more options.
As an additional point, when crafting magic weapons (either by yourself outside of PFS, or when buying them) you really can't get a discount on the core weapon/ammunition. In this case, the items are listed as alchemical items, with a craft DC, so alchemists can craft them for 1/3rd of the usual price. Since this would discount the price of the ammunition, I would argue, that the cost of the base ammunition is insignificant to the final product.
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I think Andrew's position is a bit extreme. We are given three specific forms of ammunition that can be made Durable ("crossbow bolts, darts, and shuriken"). Their effects, including price, are identical to that of a Durable Arrow (1gp/each).
It doesn't matter that mundane Crossbow Bolts cost twice as much as mundane Arrows. The text doesn't ask us to figure out a complicated pricing ratio. Durable Crossbow Bolts, Durable Darts, and Durable Shuriken all cost the same as Durable Arrows.
Where does it say that?
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The source says other ammo may be available, but it doesn't give the price or stats for them.
The base statistics are unaffected (it states that as well). I understand (somewhat) where you're coming from, but even then I cannot understand why you believe they're not available at all.
Take bolts, for example. We are told they exist. That cannot be disputed. They either cost the same as an Arrow, or twice as much. There cannot be a debate about random prices.
So, conservatively, a Durable Bolt would be 2gp. Or, how most ppl I've encountered rule it, they'd be 1gp. But in either case, the item exists. The only variation that should be possible is price (and even that I don't really agree with).
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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The sourcebook only lists the price for durable arrows. They do not list durable as a flat modifier to be applied to any ammunition, so there is no way to accurately determine how to price durable bolts, darts or shuriken. Since there is no way to determine the price of the variant ammunition without table variation it is not legal in PFS.
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The sourcebook only lists the price for durable arrows. They do not list durable as a flat modifier to be applied to any ammunition, so there is no way to accurately determine how to price durable bolts, darts or shuriken. Since there is no way to determine the price of the variant ammunition without table variation it is not legal in PFS.
Read my last comment.
There are two possible prices (really only 1, but I'm trying to work with you guys here). The possibility of two prices does not invalidate their existence or legality. You're taking this way too far.
And this "rule" you're citing is flat out incorrect. Additional Resources states they're legal. I'm going to side with that over personal opinions any day.
If that means that some GMs will treat me as owning half as many Crossbow Bolts than I have listed on my ITS, then so be it. But you're not going to tell me they're illegal.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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And this "rule" you're citing is flat out incorrect. Additional Resources states they're legal. I'm going to side with that over personal opinions any day.
The Alchemy Manual says that variant ammunition is uncommon but available. It also says that the base stats are different than that of the arrows listed. Price is a base stat, but the book mentions no formula to determine the price.
It's not my fault they didn't create all of the alchemical ammunitions as static +gp add-ons to be added to bundles of various ammunition. The books are written in a manner that forces a GM to make rulings at the table. This ability falls outside of the power that table GMs have in PFS.
Looking at Durable we don't know if it is a multiplier or a flat modifier to the price of a single arrow. The difference would drastically change the price between durable bolts, durable darts or durable shuriken. If the price of the item can't be determined in a manner that eliminates all table variation. It isn't a legal purchase in PFS.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I agree with Andrew and Brian. I don't allow any custom items in PFS. Custom items, to me, are defined as any item that doesn't have a specific price or stat-line.
If you follow the interpretation that all variant ammunition cost the same, just with different base stats based on the weapon used, the process of determining the final stats isn't different from the process we use for other items.
The stats for a large +1 follow bastard sword aren't in the CRB, we just follow the instructions given by the rules to assemble a stat block.
This situation seems similar, except that there are two interpretations what the rules actually say.
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But there is no formula given for durable ammo.
I find it interesting that this fact leads you and I to different conclusions.
I see no formula listed as meaning that durable darts, shuriken and bolts are the same price as arrows: 1gp/each.
You see no formula listed as meaning that you need to come up with one.
But it's the next step you take that baffles me.
There can only be one alternate price beyond 1gp. For bolts, that's 2gp. You're claiming it's impossible to determine. I don't understand that.
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But there is no formula given for durable ammo.I find it interesting that this fact leads you and I to different conclusions.
I see no formula listed as meaning that durable darts, shuriken and bolts are the same price as arrows: 1gp/each.
You see no formula listed as meaning that you need to come up with one.
But it's the next step you take that baffles me.
There can only be one alternate price beyond 1gp. For bolts, that's 2gp. You're claiming it's impossible to determine. I don't understand that.
You`ve misread me. Im not saying there is only one potential formula. id be completely comfortable if John, Tonya, and Linda decided the price was 1gp each. The fact that you could view it the way i wrote it earlier, means that there usnt a codified formula.
And even though the formula i came up with is completely easy and possible, meanscexactly jack squat un PFS. Unless the formula is published somewhere, it isnt a rule, and thus not allowed in PFS.
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Ultimate Equipment: Grappling arrows are listed as also available in bolt form. No alternate cost is listed.
Ranged Tactics Toolbox: Barbed arrows and incendiary arrows are listed as also available in bolt form. No alternate cost is listed. Also, Crank Crossbows are specifically for use with grappling or barbed bolts.
The additional resources document lists all of these items as allowed. Thus, it seems likely that someone has used them in the past few years. Yet I can't find any dispute about their legality (or price) when searching the messageboards.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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But there is no formula given for durable ammo.
Well either no price change formula is needed and you just use the usual stats (of course depending on the weapon used to shoot the arrows/bolts), or you replace the cost of an arrow with the cost of the ammunition.
ALCHEMICAL ARROWS
What follows is a sampling of alchemical arrows designed
by the elves of Kyonin. Unless otherwise stated, these
alchemical arrows are only effective for one shot,
regardless of whether the shot hits its target. Though
elven alchemists created these formulae, any alchemist
can use them.
The listed costs are for one non-masterwork alchemical
arrow; a masterwork version costs 6 gp more than the listed
price. Unless otherwise noted, 20 arrows weigh 3 pounds.
The original rules for alchemical archery appeared in
Pathf inder Player Companion: Elves of Golarion. This section
expands upon those rules and updates them for the
Pathf inder RPG.
Other Types of Ammunition: While Kyonin archers
prefer alchemical arrows to other missile weapons,
characters can infuse other ammunition and thrown
weapons that deal piercing damage (such as crossbow
bolts, darts, and shuriken) with alchemical effects.
Aside from differing base statistics, these alternative
types of alchemical ammunition have effects identical
to the alchemical arrows listed here. However, f irearm
ammunition can’t be imbued with alchemical ingredients,
nor can ammunition types that don’t deal piercing damage.
Actually I hope, that the price is just the price. Otherwise questions like "What do small or large alchemical arrows cost? " Start to creep up, this usually isn't an issue for other alchemical items, since they have no listed size category, so the fire giant can throw the normal sized alchemists fire just fine.
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What if instead of x20 to get 1GP each we instead are adding 9sp +5cp to the cost, so that bolts are 1.05gp?Then I've paid the merchant a 9.5 silver tip, and I still get to use this nifty option.
The option doesn't simply cease to exist.
In PFS thats exactly what it means. For the record, i have a crossbow ranger, so i have a dog in the fight.
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Unless the formula is published somewhere, it isnt a rule, and thus not allowed in PFS.Your extraordinary claim is going to need extraordinary evidence.
I disagree. Those wanting it allowed need to find the rules for how to purchase differently priced ammo.
My evidence is the absence of such a rule.
Thats how PFS works.
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There is a simple and easy way to solve this dilemma. If you have a PC that uses Durable Darts, Bolts, or Shuriken, simply continue purchasing them at the price you've been paying (I certainly will be).
If that price has been 1gp, and you encounter a GM that believes the cost is somewhere ranging from 1+gp to 2gp, simply cross off two check boxes for every piece of ammunition you lose.
If you encounter a GM that believes they don't exist, politely pull out your copy of the Alchemy Manual and show them they are wrong. If they persist and tell you there's no "formula", politely tell them you've paid the highest price it could possibly be.
Since you've already shown that the item exists, that should cover all your bases, and you should be able to play your character.
If your GM persists still, you have the option of packing up and playing under a different GM that chooses to believe that the game works.
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So, Andrew, do you similarly not allow barding to be made of special materials? That's a much more frequently asked question than this one.
And what about Adamantine weapons? There's dispute about what you pay for large-sized versions, correct? You believe it's +6000gp, while I believe it's +3000gp? May as well just ban Adamantine. It's simply too confusing. Wouldn't want table variation.
If you're going to stick to your guns regarding this absolutely silly notion, you're going to have to stick with it for everything.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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The rules for calculating the price of special materials is listed in the CRB. The Developers might come back and FAQ in what order the math is performed, but they haven't yet.
We aren't saying these items don't exist. We're saying that the price isn't listed in a legal sourcebook, and by PFS general guidelines not eligible for purchase.
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The rules for calculating the price of special materials is listed in the CRB. The Developers might come back and FAQ in what order the math is performed, but they haven't yet.
We aren't saying these items don't exist. We're saying that the price isn't listed in a legal sourcebook, and by PFS general guidelines not eligible for purchase.
It doesn't have to BE listed when the book tells you how to calculate it, (even if the book telling you is less than the 100% certainty that english never reaches around here)
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The rules for calculating the price of special materials is listed in the CRB. The Developers might come back and FAQ in what order the math is performed, but they haven't yet.
So, according to you, since the formula isn't known, no Barding can be made of special materials.
I'm just trying to show how ridiculous your argument is.
We aren't saying these items don't exist. We're saying that the price isn't listed in a legal sourcebook, and by PFS general guidelines not eligible for purchase.
Please show me these guidelines that you keep referring to. Surely they must exist in either the Guide, the FAQ, the Additional Resources, or as a post by Campaign Leadership.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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The formula for barding is listed in the CRB. Item price x shape/size modifier. If you want to add special material it would be (item price x shape/size mod) + special material.
Should special materials be a flat modifier? Probably not, but not my call. Adamantine shouldn't cost the same for a dagger and a greatsword, and mithral shouldn't cost the same for a suit of chainmail and a breastplate. The instructions are there to get a set price, and if the Devs want to FAQ to move where the size/shape multiplier gets used they can.
You can't show any posts or rules that allow PFS participants the use of material that do not have listed stats in a legal sourcebook, and I don't have time to waste digging for a post to prove my point. So I'll just throw out a real simple one - no reskinning.
Since stats for durable bolts, darts, etc are not listed along side durable arrows. You can't reskin durable arrows into other durable ammunition.
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The formula for barding is listed in the CRB. Item price x shape/size modifier. If you want to add special material it would be (item price x shape/size mod) + special material.
Andrew Christian believes otherwise. If you check the FAQ request I linked earlier, you'll find others with a similar mindset.
It's quite literally no different than what's being discussed here.
I appreciate your honesty in not knowing of such a Rules citation.
Perhaps Andrew will come around as well?
Until such time, to anyone else reading this thread, please continue purchasing your Mithral Chain Shirt Barding, Grappling Bolts, and Durable Shuriken.
There is nothing restricting you from purchasing these 100% legal, existent items.
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We're saying that the price isn't listed in a legal sourcebook...
Which, in and of itself, may well be incorrect... even before getting into the restrictions spun off from this base assumption. The alternate view is that the price is listed right there in the item description.
The idea that there should be a different price for various forms of ammunition with a particular special quality is an assumption which some people are making. Others assume that no alternate price is listed because the price is the same for all forms. Taken in isolation, either assumption could theoretically be correct. However, given that only one of them results in a clear answer and that this issue has been around and unchallenged (until now) at least since Ultimate Equipment came out... the clear answer (i.e. the price is the listed price) seems far more likely to me.
If a GM wants to rule that there is some other, unspecified price, that'd be table variation. If they want to rule that this assumed unspecified price makes the item unavailable, that seems a step beyond table variation... given that it contradicts additional resources.