Hi everyone. I have two questions regarding the Whirling Blade Stance feat.
Whirling Blade Stance wrote: Once you've made a thrown Strike with such a weapon, you can use the precision of your throw to make additional strikes with it, even from a distance. Start from the space of the previous Strike's target to determine the range increment and whether the new target has cover. At the end of your turn, the thrown weapon flies directly back to you in a straight line. If a solid barrier blocks its path, it falls to the ground after hitting the barrier. 1. Regarding the bolded part: Do the additional strikes have to be against a new target? Or is this speech relative to the term "previous". To be absolutely clear, can you repeatedly attack the same target on your turn using this ranged attack?
2. When you throw a weapon, it becomes a ranged weapon and the stipulation of monastic weaponry is that you can Flurry of Blows with a melee monk weapon. Meaning that you cannot Flurry with the ranged attacks provided by the stance. Is this intended? This makes the stance not work with the monk's core feature and it feels like there is a disconnect between this feature and the rest of the class. This is without considering the fact that this is a level 14 feature.
Do you think the feat is too weak and should be changed? Or do you think it's fine as is?
If I recall correctly, melee weapons that are thrown are still melee weapons. They're making ranged attacks, but that doesn't make them ranged weapons. I might be getting my wires crossed, though. I dont' work with thrown much.
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Sanityfaerie wrote: If I recall correctly, melee weapons that are thrown are still melee weapons. They're making ranged attacks, but that doesn't make them ranged weapons. I might be getting my wires crossed, though. I dont' work with thrown much. The text for the Thrown trait states this:
Thrown Trait wrote: You can throw this weapon as a ranged attack, and it is a ranged weapon when thrown. So unfortunately it does count as a ranged attack made with a ranged weapon.
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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
That is wrong. They are ranged weapons when thrown.
That being said, monk has plenty of tricks that don't work with Flurry of Blows. Flurry is a good tool they get off the bat, but I don't think "their core feature" is quite accurate.
HammerJack wrote: That is wrong. They are ranged weapons when thrown.
That being said, monk has plenty of tricks that don't work with Flurry of Blows. Flurry is a good tool they get off the bat, but I don't think "their core feature" is quite accurate.
Do you have any thoughts regarding question 1? Just curious.
What would you call their core feature, if any?
You are absolutely right that Flurry doesn't work with some tricks the monk has, but it does work with a lot of them. If you have an action free and you haven't flourished it's very efficient. In fact, the efficiency means you can use it with other tricks. Things like trip/grapple/shove or feint and demoralize are so readily available because of the action economy that Flurry allows, which is a core strength of the monk. That doesn't mean it's the only attack action that a monk will ever use but for a lot of monks it will be the standard way of attacking. I don't think calling it a core feature is too far off base.
FWIW, I consider the Monk class' unparalleled unarmed defense proficiency and Stances (collectively) as the core features. Mobility and Flurry feel like secondary or supporting features.
The Stances are are poachable to some degree but IMO still class-defining and very powerful. High unarmored defense is the other side of that coin, and completes the picture (and is not poachable).
Just personal opinion though.
RE Whirling Blade targets: the text is not clear about attacking the same target twice. It does specify "the new target", however that could easily mean new as-in "fresh"/"additional" as much as "different". I would infer multiple targets from the flavor text, but that is not definitive and there are no other conflicting callouts to clear up the ambiguity.
RE Whirling Blade Flurry: unfortunately it looks like no special Flurry with this stance... it gives all Finesse melee monk weapons the Thrown trait but does not include any language that relaxes the Flurry limitations (contrast with Shooting Stars stance).
Yeah, by raw, you can't flurry with whirling blade stance ranged attacks which makes its usefulness very dubious. It really should work with flurry.
It's kinda neat if you go pick up strong arm and far shot along the way. Having 40 feet of effective range with your weapons makes up for it I think. It's just the 10 feet that makes it disappointing.
The feat says you can use the precision etc. etc., not must.
So the whole thing is optional.
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I think the question was "can you make multiple strikes against the same opponent". Of course you can do two if you do one against a second target in between but quid of doing it twice in a row to the same guy?
Rules seems pretty clear that the answer is no and that what you're doing is some sort of ricochet attack using precision.
It does feel weird because the "monk trope" I was getting from this feat was flying swords which is more of a magical sword telekinesis, but nothing in the text supports that interpretation.
I'm gonna go with squiggit here. "Can" is the keyword. Nothing is requiring you to avoid attacking the same target.
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Yeah a plain text reading of "the new target" is that it's not the same as the previous target.
So after hitting A, you can't hit A again. But you could hit A, then B, then A again.
Ascalaphus wrote: Yeah a plain text reading of "the new target" is that it's not the same as the previous target.
So after hitting A, you can't hit A again. But you could hit A, then B, then A again.
This is still a misinterpretation. The basic function of your weapons and strikes remain unchanged. You just gain the option to attack further targets to avoid increment penalties but it is not obligatory. If you want to, you can attack the same target more than once you just have to keep in mind the 10 foot increment.
Oh yeah, there's a sentence break, I read that wrong.
The new target is only mentioned in a sentence that's about calculating the new range increment and cover and it only applies to the "even from a distance" part of the first sentence.
Whirling Blade Stance wrote: Once you've made a thrown Strike with such a weapon, you can use the precision of your throw to make additional strikes with it, even from a distance.
Start from the space of the previous Strike's target to determine the range increment and whether the new target has cover. At the end of your turn, the thrown weapon flies directly back to you in a straight line. If a solid barrier blocks its path, it falls to the ground after hitting the barrier.
To be fair that makes a lot more sense with how the flavor text describes it and how the trope usually works.
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It seems to be the general sentiment that the "can" keyword here is really about giving you the ability to make thrown ranged attacks within your range increment. I'm fairly confident now that Paizo would've explicitly stated that the second target must be different from the previous target to make the second attack if they wanted it to function that way. Additionally, if that were the case the stance would become very weak against a very low number of enemies.
Having clarified question 1, do you think the stance is fine as is? Or does anyone think that it could use adjustment for a 14th level feat? I love the fantasy that this stance/thrown weapon fighting sells but feel like it doesn't get as much love as other styles.
I feel like this exists mostly so peacock stance users have an option for fuse stance and while they're compatible, they don't really synergize.
As it stands, it's equivalent to reach for the first attack and you have to be dex based. You can pick up range increases from other classes but for level 14 that's weak.
There's also no follow up, which is a shame because you're including flying swords but not surfing on them.
Mer_ wrote: I feel like this exists mostly so peacock stance users have an option for fuse stance and while they're compatible, they don't really synergize.
As it stands, it's equivalent to reach for the first attack and you have to be dex based. You can pick up range increases from other classes but for level 14 that's weak.
There's also no follow up, which is a shame because you're including flying swords but not surfing on them.
YES. I have that fantasy too. Let me use an activity to throw the sword and ride on it...
Ascalaphus wrote: Yeah a plain text reading of "the new target" is that it's not the same as the previous target.
So after hitting A, you can't hit A again. But you could hit A, then B, then A again.
I would go with that interpretation too. If you want to attack A again then you'd need to throw a second weapon.
KraevenX wrote: I'm fairly confident now that Paizo would've explicitly stated that the second target must be different from the previous target to make the second attack if they wanted it to function that way. Considering they call one the "previous" and one the "next" I'm fairly confident that the writers think they have stated it.
But it is a fairly poorly written feature overall. Just look at the "At the end of your turn, the thrown weapon flies directly back to you in a straight line." line. Other returning features specify where the weapon end up while this one doesn't. So does it return to your hand? To your space? And if you haven't got a hand free then what?
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