Incubus for 2E

[Xarath]

Hey all, do you think a separate creature statblock should be created for the Incubus? Or do you just use the Succubus and call it a dude and consider it done?

[Grankless]

Incubi are different demons entirely and have a very different suite of things they cover than a succubus. You'd want to make some appropriate abilities for the stuff they do (which, good luck, they're gross). I'm sure it'll happen eventually, maybe? Rejection vulnerability may still be interesting to put on them.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

I suppose it depends. If you just want a seduction demon that's a man, you can probably just use the succubus--succubi can be any gender they want. However, if you want not just a different gender succubus but a proper incubus you'd probably want to base it on the succubus anyway, and then compare both 1e succubus and incubus to see what's different.

[Temperans]

Yeah no, basing Incubus on Succubus is going to be a huge headache on a fundamental level.

Succubus are creature 7 when Incubus are creature 6. Succubus have considerably higher stats period and a lot of it focuses on Charisma, while Incubus are focused more on Strength. Succubus use claws while Incubus use a scimitar or slams. Succubus drain energy from their victims by first grappling/embrassing them and can provide a profane gift: Incubus instead when they crit deal extra non-lethal and cause sickened.

Also the whole rejection thing probably would work differently for Incubus. Why you might ask? Because the whole thing about Incubus is that they are violent demons who like to cause pain and violent ****** gratification. You really think someone rejecting that type of creature is going to do anything? Because it really feels like they wouldn't care.

Instead the opposite might work, where they take damage when accepted and don't inflict pain. But that has a whole lot of weird connotations that would very likely cause the forum to explode in anger.

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Pls don't get angry at me.

[Xarath]

What I find to be quite peculiar was why didnt the draining kiss ability get tagged onto the incubus?

I mean they're 2 different creatures but since they both derive from Lust, it would seem appropriate that Incubi could also drain lives, especially since they were more violently open towards the concept.

[Kasoh]

Xarath wrote:

What I find to be quite peculiar was why didnt the draining kiss ability get tagged onto the incubus?

I mean they're 2 different creatures but since they both derive from Lust, it would seem appropriate that Incubi could also drain lives, especially since they were more violently open towards the concept.

Thematically, Succubi lie and manipulate their foes. Incubi assault theirs. From a game design standpoint, you probably don't need two creatures in the same power band with level draining touch as a schtick. An Incubus is probably different mechanically for variety's sake.

[Coridan]

I generally have male and female succubi, as well as male and female incubi. It's mostly in the "how they do it" rather than what bits they have.

[Alchemic_Genius]

Depends on your angle.

If by "male succubus", then, well, pf2e succubi are explicitly genderfluid and can be whatever they want, so there's no reason for an incubus statline.

If by incubus, you mean the really violent and aggressive, take by force sex demon, then, well, you are probably sol. Paizo already took out the child kidnapping demon lord for hitting on a lot of hot button triggers, and an incubus treads the exact same territory. There's also not really a way you can "PG 13" an incubus like you can with a succubus (where you just kinda f2b or just to the "lure in then pounce" approach instead of the succubus bringing them to the bedroom first). Pf 2e has been stepping away from that kinda stuff as a motif in their storytelling, and it's a good thing. You really can't field an incubus and not make your table uncomfortable without some serious trust and consent

[James Jacobs]

We did do stats or an incubus in 1st edition. While the succubus entry in the bestiary confirms that incubui are still a separate creature in the world, we have no plans to bring forward the incubus from 1st edition at this time.

As mentioned above, succubi are genderfluid and can present as any gender, so that can enable enough stories for most groups. One quick way to approximate the 1E incubus, in fact, is to simply put the weak creature adjustment on a succubus, since the incubus was one CR lower than the succubus in the previous edition.

The topic of monsters so closely associated with sexuality (be they ones we have in print like the succubus or the vampire, or ones we don't) is always going to be a fraught one that should be handled delicately and maturely, and with the full consent of the gaming group as a whole.

As Pathifnder has grown more popular, it's become increasingly important for us to present a game that's appropriate and welcoming to a wider audience. We still produce darker and more mature content now and then (as evidenced by the fact that we included the succubus in the first Bestiary, or publish adventures like "Malevolence"), but we are indeed trying to keep things mostly in the "PG-13" region.

Of course, there are countless stories one can tell about a succubus or vampire without involving sexual situations!

[Alchemic_Genius]

Both the major times I used succubi in my 2e games were nonsexual :)

The first was the succubus was using their powers to be a spy and infiltrate the group and acted like a somewhat nieve aspiring occultist the players kinda took under their wing so she could steal a grimoire. She almost succeeded; the person holding the book got dominated into handing it to the succubi's boss, but a teammate grappled them and another dispelled the dominate; after than combat went really bad for the succubus after their cover was blown

The second was the succubus impersonating a player's lover and giving them a token of favor in the form of a Profane Gift. Later in the story, when the succubus helped lead an attack on the city, they stripped the boon to Drain the person and make them weaker. At the end of the invasion, the lover was furious someone had the gall to exploit her love and gave the player a device that allows the two to share thoughts (pretty similar to the crit pass on Heartbond; if the ritual was out at the time, I probably would have used it!) so that they dont have to fear their bond being exploited again.

The second story I would not have done though if I didn't have a lot of established trust with the player beforehand, but I do have that trust, and because I know that player likes emotional drama in the game, I was able to leverage it into a major progression in her romance arc