Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
Per the text of Unleash Psyche, there are only a few requirements to cast it.
Quote: UNLEASH PSYCHE (free-action)
PSYCHIC
Trigger Your turn begins.
Requirements You’re in an encounter, you Cast a Spell on your previous turn, and you aren’t stupefied.
You call on the depths of your mind and let psychic power flood through. Your Psyche remains Unleashed for 2 rounds or until your fall unconscious, whichever comes first. You can’t voluntarily quell your unleashed psyche. While your Psyche is Unleashed, the following effects occur.
[...]
After your unleashed psyche subsides, your mind must
recover from the strain of channeling its full power. You
can’t use Unleash Psyche again for 2 rounds, and
you’re stupefied 1 for 2 rounds.
Specifically, note that there's no requirement that the character does not have an Unleashed Psyche. Furthermore, while there is a limit on using Unleash Psyche again for 2 rounds, it only applies after the unleashed psyche subsides. Because the Psyche remains Unleashed for 2 rounds, it lasts for the round used and the following round.
Per RAW, it seems clear that if I cast a spell on Round 1 of combat and then, on Round 2, Unleash Psyche and cast a spell, I still meet the requirements to Unleash Psyche on Round 3 of combat. What happens in this instance? Specifically, I have the following two questions:
First, if my Psyche is Unleashed when I use Unleash Psyche, does it fulfill the "You Unleash your Psyche" trigger for activities like Violent Unleash?
Second, how does this affect the number of rounds for which my "Psyche remains Unleashed"?
The CRB p. 444 on Duplicate Effects says the following:
Quote: When you’re affected by the same thing multiple times, only one instance applies, using the higher level of the effects, or the newer effect if the two are the same level. For example, if you were using mage armor and then cast it again, you’d still benefit from only one casting of that spell. Casting a spell again on the same target might get you a better duration or effect if it were cast at a higher level the second time, but otherwise doing so gives you no advantage. Based on the above, the duration of Unleashed Psyche should increase to two more rounds (expiring at the start of turn on Round Five) since the newer effect is the instanced applied to the character. However, it's still not clear if this counts for the trigger, since the Unleashed effect was already on the character. Similarly, it's not clear if the first instance counts as terminating, triggering the subside effects (You can't use Unleash Psyche again for 2 rounds, and you're stupefied 1 for 2 rounds). Thus I can see a few outcomes...
[u]Additional Unleash Psyche uses count as "You Unleash your Psyche" and do not trigger the subside effects[/u]: In this ruling, as long as I continue to cast a spell each of my turns and don't gain the stupefied condition from something else (or fall unconscious and trigger the subside effects that way), each round of the encounter I can Unleash Psyche and Violent Unleash. That means I'm always dealing 2*Spell Level bonus damage on psychic spellcasting and starting with a Violent Unleash but only ever have two actions on my turns, at least one of which must be used to cast a spell (e.g. cast Telekinetic Projectile or cast Shield and Stride). I can forgo the Violent Unleash to gain three actions on my turn, but it still may cause issues if there's a lot of necessary movement or if an enemy can perform reactions to Cast a Spell (or if the character goes unconscious or becomes stupefied by another source, which seem to be the main antagonist counters to this scenario).
[u]Additional Unleash Psyche activations do not count as "You Unleash your Psyche" and do not trigger the subside effects[/u]: In this ruling, Violent Unleash will likely only happen once per encounter unless the character gains stupefied from some other source or fails to cast a spell on their turn, thereby becoming ineligible to extend the Unleashed Psyche effect, or falls unconscious, thereby triggering the subside effects. However, as long as the character continues to meet the requirements to extend the effect, the character will still have the bonus damage for the entire encounter. At least one action each turn will need to be used for the Cast a Spell activity.
[u]Additional Unleash Psyche activations trigger the subside effects[/u]: I'm not to worried about the Violent Unleash trigger effect in this instance, but technically there are two variants of this situation. The character has a weird cycle when using Unleash Psyche on Round 3: They continue to benefit from Unleashed Psyche for Round 3 and Round 4 (ending at the start of turn on Round 5) but are Stupefied 1 for Round 3 and Round 4 (ending at the start of turn on Round 5), and cannot use Unleash Psyche until the start of Round 5 from the first subside effect. At the start of their turn on Round 5, the Unleashed Pscyhe ends, triggering a fresh round of subside effects, leaving them Stupefied 1 for Round 5 and Round 6 and unable to cast Unleash Psyche on those rounds. This leaves the following cycle:
- Round 1: No Unleashed effect, cannot use Unleash Psyche
- Round 2: Uses Unleash Psyche to gain the Unleashed effect
- Round 3: Has the Unleashed effect, uses Unleash Psyche to extend the Unleashed effect, gains Stupefied 1 from subside effects
- Round 4: Has the Unleashed effect, cannot use Unleash Psyche, Stupefied 1
- Round 5: No Unleashed effect, cannot use Unleash Psyche, Stupefied 1
- Round 6: No Unleashed effect, cannot use Unleash Psyche, Stupefied 1
- Round 8: Uses Unleash Psyche to gain the Unleashed effect (thus repeating the above cycle from Round 2).
The above seems really weird to me because the Round 3 use of Unleash Psyche also triggers the inability to use Unleash Psyche for the same round that it was just used, but I don't think it leads to an inherent contradiction.
Alternatively, this confusion could all be avoided if Paizo just did an errata on the Unleash Psyche effect that adds "your Psyche is not Unleashed" to the requirements, similar to the way Rage works. The fact that it's not there seems to imply that the effect is intended to be extendable, but it could just be an oversight (similar to not specifying "Standard Psi Cantrip" in The Oscillating Wave's Conservation of Energy feature.
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Well, there are 2 ways of ruling that:
- Considering that having your Psyche Unleashed is a state, your Psyche is either Unleashed or not Unleashed (Leashed...).
- Considering that having your Psyche Unleashed is not mechanical and that the effects of having your Psyche Unleashed are the Unleash Psyche effects.
You have detailed the second interpretation.
Under the first interpretation, the first time you use Unleash Psyche, your Psyche Unleashes and it triggers the effects when your Psyche Unleashes (Violent Unleash and such). The second time you use Unleash Psyche nothing happens (as your Psyche is already Unleashed, it doesn't get Unleashed again). When the first Unleash Psyche ends, your Psyche subsides, you get Stupefied and lose the bonuses from having your Psyche Unleashed. You are still under the effects of the second Unleash Psyche, but it's doing nothing as it's sole effect is to Unleash and subside your Psyche.
This reading doesn't allow any shenanigan with Unleash Psyche and as such I expect most GMs to stick to this interpretation which is both RAW and RAI.
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Yeah, it feels like shenanigans and power gaming rules reading to let a Psychic use Unleash Psyche while already unleashed.
I'm not arguing with you guys saying it's obviously not intended, but I'm skeptical that it's "power" gaming when it's an objectively bad play. What do they get out of it? One extra violent unleash, and they're stuped for the whole one extra round of their unleashed psyche - which is when they would want to be getting the bonus for spell damage. Stupid psychics might try this, maybe, once
Baarogue wrote: I'm not arguing with you guys saying it's obviously not intended, but I'm skeptical that it's "power" gaming when it's an objectively bad play. What do they get out of it? One extra violent unleash, and they're stuped for the whole one extra round of their unleashed psyche - which is when they would want to be getting the bonus for spell damage. Stupid psychics might try this, maybe, once I can see uses with Psyche ability. They are not all affected by Stupefied.
Also, if the fight is nearly over, between being just Stupefied and being Stupefied and Unleashed, I see the point of the second one.
Baarogue wrote: I'm not arguing with you guys saying it's obviously not intended, but I'm skeptical that it's "power" gaming when it's an objectively bad play. What do they get out of it? One extra violent unleash, and they're stuped for the whole one extra round of their unleashed psyche - which is when they would want to be getting the bonus for spell damage. Stupid psychics might try this, maybe, once I'd assume that plan would be relying on the effect being refreshed, so you would be able to be Unleashed indefinitely and only deal with being Stupified after combat.
Even if it is only one extra round of unleashed psyche effect - consider that most combats only last about 4 rounds to begin with. Getting 3 rounds instead of only 2 is quite the boost.
Baarogue wrote: I'm not arguing with you guys saying it's obviously not intended, but I'm skeptical that it's "power" gaming when it's an objectively bad play. What do they get out of it? One extra violent unleash, and they're stuped for the whole one extra round of their unleashed psyche - which is when they would want to be getting the bonus for spell damage. Stupid psychics might try this, maybe, once Yes I agree technically it works.
It is a power improvement at least along one axis. The cost of Stupified is a factor but not the biggest one.
Given the level of rules interpretation required in this game and that this is clearly not the intention of the power, I wouldn't complain if a GM said no.
By the way you should look at how round is defined as well. It is not what most people play.
I suppose if your psychic is built to use other psyche abilities instead of take advantage of the spellcasting damage bonus then stupefied wouldn't matter to you, so that could be a tactic for some. I admit I have tunnel vision about that bonus. I can't believe anyone would depend on the "unlimited unleashes" interpretation though. That wouldn't pass any GM I've played with
Gortle wrote: By the way you should look at how round is defined as well. It is not what most people play. I'd ask you to explain this crack but I suspect it's some irrelevant derail so save it. I'm using "round" in the way it's used in the context of the description of Unleash Psyche on DA p12
Baarogue wrote: I suppose if your psychic is built to use other psyche abilities instead of take advantage of the spellcasting damage bonus then stupefied wouldn't matter to you, so that could be a tactic for some. I admit I have tunnel vision about that bonus. I can't believe anyone would depend on the "unlimited unleashes" interpretation though. That wouldn't pass any GM I've played with
Umlimited leashes? Not at all. It is only one extra, as the first Unleash ends generating Stupified stopping the third Unleash.
Baarogue wrote: Gortle wrote: By the way you should look at how round is defined as well. It is not what most people play. I'd ask you to explain this crack but I suspect it's some irrelevant derail so save it. I'm using "round" in the way it's used in the context of the description of Unleash Psyche on DA p12 If you are in a thread with this level of rules shenanigans goin on, you need to realize that a round is defined here, but differently here for spells. The difference is one is fixed to the whole party so initiative order is important, the other is relative to the individual who casts the spell.
Unleash Psyche is not a spell therefore the default fixed with respect to initiative definition of round applies.
Gortle wrote: Baarogue wrote: I suppose if your psychic is built to use other psyche abilities instead of take advantage of the spellcasting damage bonus then stupefied wouldn't matter to you, so that could be a tactic for some. I admit I have tunnel vision about that bonus. I can't believe anyone would depend on the "unlimited unleashes" interpretation though. That wouldn't pass any GM I've played with
Umlimited leashes? Not at all. It is only one extra, as the first Unleash ends generating Stupified stopping the third Unleash. I agree. I was responding to all the others in the first part, and Guntermench in that last sentence
Gortle wrote: If you are in a thread with this level of rules shenanigans goin on, you need to realize that a round is defined here, but differently here for spells. The difference is one is fixed to the whole party so initiative order is important, the other is relative to the individual who casts the spell.
Unleash Psyche is not a spell therefore the default fixed with respect to initiative definition of round applies.
lol no it doesn't
Turns, CR 468 wrote: Step 1: Start Your Turn
Source Core Rulebook pg. 468 3.0
Many things happen automatically at the start of your turn—it's a common point for tracking the passage of time for effects that last multiple rounds. At the start of each of your turns, take these steps in any order you choose:
If you created an effect lasting for a certain number of rounds, reduce the number of rounds remaining by 1. The effect ends if the duration is reduced to 0. For example, if you cast a spell that lasts 3 rounds on yourself during your first turn of a fight, it would affect you during that turn, decrease to 2 rounds of duration at the start of your second turn, decrease to 1 round of duration at the start of your third turn, and expire at the start of your fourth turn.
the example refers to spells, but this mechanic is not limited to them. How do you run barbarian rage and alchemist mutagens, if you've been reading the rules like that all this time?
Baarogue wrote:
Turns, CR 468 wrote: Step 1: Start Your Turn
Source Core Rulebook pg. 468 3.0
Many things happen automatically at the start of your turn—it's a common point for tracking the passage of time for effects that last multiple rounds. At the start of each of your turns, take these steps in any order you choose:
If you created an effect lasting for a certain number of rounds, reduce the number of rounds remaining by 1. The effect ends if the duration is reduced to 0. For example, if you cast a spell that lasts 3 rounds on yourself during your first turn of a fight, it would affect you during that turn, decrease to 2 rounds of duration at the start of your second turn, decrease to 1 round of duration at the start of your third turn, and expire at the
...
Chuckle. No I didn't play it. There are a number of stupid conflicts like this that everyone ignores. But I accept your chastisement.
I like to bring them up now and then - just so I can be corrected if I've missed something. Thanks. BTW there are still two definitions of a round, but the term effect is broad enough to cover this instance.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
SuperBidi wrote: Well, there are 2 ways of ruling that:
- Considering that having your Psyche Unleashed is a state, your Psyche is either Unleashed or not Unleashed (Leashed...).
- Considering that having your Psyche Unleashed is not mechanical and that the effects of having your Psyche Unleashed are the Unleash Psyche effects.
You have detailed the second interpretation.
Under the first interpretation, the first time you use Unleash Psyche, your Psyche Unleashes and it triggers the effects when your Psyche Unleashes (Violent Unleash and such). The second time you use Unleash Psyche nothing happens (as your Psyche is already Unleashed, it doesn't get Unleashed again). When the first Unleash Psyche ends, your Psyche subsides, you get Stupefied and lose the bonuses from having your Psyche Unleashed. You are still under the effects of the second Unleash Psyche, but it's doing nothing as it's sole effect is to Unleash and subside your Psyche.
This reading doesn't allow any shenanigan with Unleash Psyche and as such I expect most GMs to stick to this interpretation which is both RAW and RAI.
Is "state" defined anywhere in the rules? I think this interpretation is perfectly reasonable, but I've not seen any rules clarification on states and inability to enter them while they're active, etc. The text on Rage specifically excludes using the Rage ability while the character is raging. Stances have the limit of one-per-round but otherwise no text stating that one can't enter them while already in them, as far as I could find. While I think what you're saying may be RAI, I'm not clear on why it's RAW.
Nudist wrote: Is "state" defined anywhere in the rules? I think this interpretation is perfectly reasonable, but I've not seen any rules clarification on states and inability to enter them while they're active, etc. The text on Rage specifically excludes using the Rage ability while the character is raging. Stances have the limit of one-per-round but otherwise no text stating that one can't enter them while already in them, as far as I could find. While I think what you're saying may be RAI, I'm not clear on why it's RAW. Unleash Psyche doesn't give any bonus. If you are under Unleash Psyche you don't get anything. What gives you a bonus is that your Psyche is Unleashed. Use the word you want to describe that, but it's a state. So if you are under Unleash Psyche but that your Psyche is not Unleashed you have no bonus. And that's a perfect interpretation of RAW, not RAI.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
SuperBidi wrote: Unleash Psyche doesn't give any bonus. If you are under Unleash Psyche you don't get anything. What gives you a bonus is that your Psyche is Unleashed. Use the word you want to describe that, but it's a state. So if you are under Unleash Psyche but that your Psyche is not Unleashed you have no bonus. And that's a perfect interpretation of RAW, not RAI. Makes sense. Thanks for your response!
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