Here's a link to the Archivist replacement abilities: Bard Archivist
2nd level- he gets Lore Master that replaces versatile performance but he can take a 20 on Knowledge checks once per day, plus once per six levels beyond 2nd. I assume this modifies the normal Lore Master ability and not fully replaces it.
5th level - he gets Jack of all trades essentially earlier and it replaces Lore Master?
So, at 2nd level the Archivist essentially has both the Archivist ability to take a 20 and the normal Bard Lore Master abilities to take a 10. But at 5th level he is only left with the ability to take a 20?
Can someone clarify this progression?
At the bottom of the page you linked, you find this:
"Editor’s Note
The designer of this archetype has clarified that the entry is intended as a modification to the normal lore master bard ability, not a replacement for it. The intent of the ability is that the Archivist retains all other aspects of the lore master ability. This is not yet official errata, but GMs are encouraged to use the ability as it was intended by the designer."
At the bottom of the page you linked, you find this:
"Editor’s Note
The designer of this archetype has clarified that the entry is intended as a modification to the normal lore master bard ability, not a replacement for it. The intent of the ability is that the Archivist retains all other aspects of the lore master ability. This is not yet official errata, but GMs are encouraged to use the ability as it was intended by the designer."
I saw that note, but then what does Jack of all Trades (archivist) replace if it says Lore Master?
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Here's the official version: Source
Advanced Player's Guide pg. 80
Bardic Performance: An archivist gains the following types of bardic performance.
Naturalist (Ex): An archivist who has identified a creature with a Knowledge check appropriate to its type can use performance to share strategies for defeating it with allies in combat. The archivist and any allies within 30 feet gain a +1 insight bonus to AC and on attack rolls and saving throws against exceptional, supernatural, and spell-like abilities used by creatures of that specific kind of monster (e.g., frost giants, not all giants or all humanoids). This bonus increases by +1 at 5th level and every six levels thereafter. This language-dependent ability requires visual and audible components. This ability replaces inspire courage.
Lamentable Belaborment (Ex): At 6th level, an archivist can bewilder a creature already fascinated by his performance. Using this ability does not disrupt the fascinate effect, but it does require a standard action to activate (in addition to the free action to continue the fascinate effect). The target must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the bard’s level + the bard’s Cha modifier). Success renders the target immune to this power for 24 hours, but failure leaves the target either dazed or confused (archivist’s choice) for as long as the performance continues. If the target takes damage, this effect ends immediately. This mind-affecting ability relies on audible components. This ability replaces suggestion.
Pedantic Lecture (Su): At 18th level, an archivist can affect as many creatures with lamentable belaborment as he currently has fascinated. In addition, he may choose to cause targets to fall asleep rather than be dazed or confused. This ability replaces mass suggestion.
Lore Master (Ex): At 2nd level, an archivist may take 20 on Knowledge checks once per day, plus once per six levels beyond 2nd. This ability replaces versatile performance.
Magic Lore (Ex): At 2nd level, an archivist gains a bonus on Spellcraft checks to identify magic items or decipher scrolls equal to half his bard level and may take 10 on such checks. An archivist can use Disable Device to disarm magical traps as per a rogue’s trapfinding ability and gains a +4 bonus on saves against magical traps, language-dependent effects, and symbols, glyphs, and magical writings of any kind. This ability replaces well-versed.
Jack of All Trades (Ex): At 5th level, an archivist can use any skill, even if the skill normally requires him to be trained. At 11th level, he considers all skills to be class skills, and at 17th level he can take 10 on any skill check, even if it is not normally allowed. This ability replaces lore master.
Probable Path (Ex): At 10th level, an archivist can calculate the action likely to bring success with the least risk. Once per day, he can take 10 on any d20 roll. He may use this ability one additional time per day for every three levels after 10th. This ability replaces jack of all trades.
When it says it is replacing something, it is presumably referring to the baseline version rather than the ability of the same name the archetype grants:
New 'Lore Master' replaces baseline 'versatile performance'New 'Magic Lore' replaces baseline 'well versed'
New 'Jack of All Trades' replaces baseline 'Lore Master' (which is basically a duplicate)
New 'Probably Path' replaces baseline 'Jack of All Trades' (which is another duplicate power).
Basically, they are changing the order in which you get some abilities and tweaking them a bit (RAW, you ONLY get the new version, not the original 'baseline' version).
This is one of the first batch of archetypes, which tend to be a little messy at times...
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This is one of the first batch of archetypes, so they tend to be a little messy at times...
Yeah, back in those days the designers had a bit of a "it's obvious how its supposed to work" mentality. It wasn't always obvious to those of us who hadn't been playtesting with the person who wrote the material.
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This is one of the first batch of archetypes, so they tend to be a little messy at times...Yeah, back in those days the designers had a bit of a "it's obvious how its supposed to work" mentality. It wasn't always obvious to those of us who hadn't been playtesting with the person who wrote the material.
Barbarian / Totem Warrior continues to ponder why it exists: I believe the first printing of APG gave it the ability to ignore the 'only one type of totem per barbarian' limit but this was dropped at some point (presumably because this archetype basically allowed every barbarian to ignore that rule) but it continues to exist somehow, drifting aimlessly through the fantasy void, hoping someday to be errata-ed out of its misery...
Here's a link to the Archivist replacement abilities: Bard Archivist archetype on AoNfixed it. AoN is the official RAW for PF1 .
The designer comment is here 2012.
PF1 APG FAQ
Okay so what i'm seeing is the a 5th level Archivist should have the following:
Lore Master (Ex): At 2nd level, an archivist may take 20 on Knowledge checks once per day, plus once per six levels beyond 2nd
Jack of All Trades (Ex): At 5th level, an archivist can use any skill, even if the skill normally requires him to be trained. At 11th level, he considers all skills to be class skills, and at 17th level he can take 10 on any skill check, even if it is not normally allowed.
Okay so the bard can only take a 20 on knowledge checks once per day, plus once per six levels beyond 2nd.
...
The Bard does NOT have the ability to "take 10 on any Knowledge skill check that he has ranks in. A bard can choose not to take 10 and can instead roll normally."Per RAW, correct.
Per the designer comment, the RAI was apparently to retain all the parts of the baseline 'lore master' ability...
Thanks for the clarification. The Editors note is implying the bard keeps all of the Lore Master abilities AND retains the new ability from Archivist.
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Hello,
I was rolling up an Archivist today when I noticed that the Loremaster ability that archivists get is considerably weaker than the one that normal bards get.
Does anyone know if this is intentional? It seems odd, since being able to make knowledge checks is, well, rather important for an archivist . . .
Also, does anyone know if Paizo ever clarified how taking 10 and taking 20 works for this ability? I rather wish they'd phrased it differently, heh . . .
That entry is intended as a modification to the normal Loremaster ability, not a replacement for it. The only difference is that you can take 20 1/day plus once for every 6 levels beyond 2nd, instead of every 6 levels beyond 5th. The rest of the ability works as is.
I should have included the phrase "This ability functions as normal, except [blah blah blah times per day]" or the sentence "This is otherwise identical to the bard class ability.
Sorry for any confusion, but that was the intent as I wrote the archetype - you just get loremaster 3 levels earlier than a normal bard. Other than that, it's the same.
Hello,
I was rolling up an Archivist today when I noticed that the Loremaster ability that archivists get is considerably weaker than the one that normal bards get.
Does anyone know if this is intentional? It seems odd, since being able to make knowledge checks is, well, rather important for an archivist . . .
Also, does anyone know if Paizo ever clarified how taking 10 and taking 20 works for this ability? I rather wish they'd phrased it differently, heh . . .
That entry is intended as a modification to the normal Loremaster ability, not a replacement for it. The only difference is that you can take 20 1/day plus once for every 6 levels beyond 2nd, instead of every 6 levels beyond 5th. The rest of the ability works as is.
I should have included the phrase "This ability functions as normal, except [blah blah blah times per day]" or the sentence "This is otherwise identical to the bard class ability.
Sorry for any confusion, but that was the intent as I wrote the archetype - you just get loremaster 3 levels earlier than a normal bard. Other than that, it's the same.
Okay so now i'm more confused:
Now the Archivist gets the Lore Master ability from (Bard) with modification from the Archivist.
And the Jack of all Trades is just replacing what exactly?
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Barbarian / Totem Warrior continues to ponder why it exists: I believe the first printing of APG gave it the ability to ignore the 'only one type of totem per barbarian' limit but this was dropped at some point (presumably because this archetype basically allowed every barbarian to ignore that rule) but it continues to exist somehow, drifting aimlessly through the fantasy void, hoping someday to be errata-ed out of its misery...This is one of the first batch of archetypes, so they tend to be a little messy at times...Yeah, back in those days the designers had a bit of a "it's obvious how its supposed to work" mentality. It wasn't always obvious to those of us who hadn't been playtesting with the person who wrote the material.
I seem to recall that at one point only the totem warrior was going to be able to take totems but they opened it up to all barbarians during development.
That's happened a few times. The Qinggong monk was originally going to have some unique spell-like abilities (like blood crow strike). But as these archetypes got out of the writers' hands and into development, Paizo pulled these in-depth archetype-specific abilities out for broader use. Like the totem powers or making the Qinggong's SLAs into spells. So more players could use the material.
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Hello,
I was rolling up an Archivist today when I noticed that the Loremaster ability that archivists get is considerably weaker than the one that normal bards get.
Does anyone know if this is intentional? It seems odd, since being able to make knowledge checks is, well, rather important for an archivist . . .
Also, does anyone know if Paizo ever clarified how taking 10 and taking 20 works for this ability? I rather wish they'd phrased it differently, heh . . .
That entry is intended as a modification to the normal Loremaster ability, not a replacement for it. The only difference is that you can take 20 1/day plus once for every 6 levels beyond 2nd, instead of every 6 levels beyond 5th. The rest of the ability works as is.
I should have included the phrase "This ability functions as normal, except [blah blah blah times per day]" or the sentence "This is otherwise identical to the bard class ability.
Sorry for any confusion, but that was the intent as I wrote the archetype - you just get loremaster 3 levels earlier than a normal bard. Other than that, it's the same.
Okay so now i'm more confused:
Now the Archivist gets the Lore Master ability from (Bard) with modification from the Archivist.
And the Jack of all Trades is just replacing what exactly?
It's a poor use in context of the word "modified" by Jason. He's not using it in the technical sense of "archetype ability X modifies base class ability X." He's saying "the Lore Master ability of the archivist WORKS LIKE the base ability EXCEPT (you get it earlier)."
For stacking purposes:
Archivist Lore Master replaces Well-Versed at 2nd level.
Archivist Jack of All Trades replaces (base) Lore Master at 5th level. (The archivist has the ability, he got it at an earlier level.)
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At this point what Jason Nelson wanted to say is relevant to get the RAI of the author, but is not the RAW of the archetype.Was wondering how long that summon spell would take to come into effect. That's really not helping clear up the original poster's confusion.
The RAW is that:
- the Archivist archetype loses the Lore Master ability of the standard Bard and gets Jack of All Trades instead;- the Archivist archetype loses Versatile performance and gets a new ability called Lore Master, which is different from the base Bard Lore master ability.
The description of the ability is:
Lore Master (Ex): At 2nd level, an archivist may take 20 on Knowledge checks once per day, plus once per six levels beyond 2nd. This ability replaces versatile performance.
Nothing about taking 10. So he can take ten with the normal limitations for taking 10, i.e. he can't take 10 when threatened or distracted.
The archetype is messed up because several names of basic abilities are reused, but when it says that an ability is replaced, the base class ability is removed completely. If a new ability with the same name replaces it, the new ability does only what the new ability description says it does.
At this point what Jason Nelson wanted to say is relevant to get the RAI of the author, but is not the RAW of the archetype.Was wondering how long that summon spell would take to come into effect. That's really not helping clear up the original poster's confusion.The RAW is that:
- the Archivist archetype loses the Lore Master ability of the standard Bard and gets Jack of All Trades instead;
- the Archivist archetype loses Versatile performance and gets a new ability called Lore Master, which is different from the base Bard Lore master ability.
The description of the ability is:
Lore Master (Ex): At 2nd level, an archivist may take 20 on Knowledge checks once per day, plus once per six levels beyond 2nd. This ability replaces versatile performance.Nothing about taking 10. So he can take ten with the normal limitations for taking 10, i.e. he can't take 10 when threatened or distracted.
The archetype is messed up because several names of basic abilities are reused, but when it says that an ability is replaced, the base class ability is removed completely. If a new ability with the same name replaces it, the new ability does only what the new ability description says it does.
Thank you. That clears it up