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Hello, my dear pathfinders. I hope everyone is well and healthy.
I was searching for some rules involving "How to build a house/ How to sell a house" but can't find anything around here.
So, one of my players want to sell/rent a house that he owns at Nirmathas, near Tamran. For rent I just follow the rules of living costs (seems fair enough to me), but how about selling? How can I set a price for a shack in the woods?
Things I would definitely consider before pricing:
- Nirmathas is a region without a strong ruler.
- Nirmathas is near old Lastwall
- The woods of Nirmathas isn't that safe
So, is anyone willing to share some knowledge on how can I solve this?
Thanks.
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Yeah, this isn't exactly a real estate market type of game.
I would usually use the Earn Income tables for the PCs renting out property, but whichever.
From a game mechanics perspective, selling something and having it be a significant amount of money would mean that the price should be accounted for in the treasure earned for that character level. Pick a price somehow and the game mechanics really don't care how.
But if it is a level 17 character selling the house for 300 gp, then it probably doesn't need to be adjusted for.
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As for market value? Not really sure. Maybe purchase price of 10 years worth of the rent price? So 120x the monthly rent or about 6000x the weekly rent.
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It's a very interesting topic and one that I hadn't thought about before so I did some digging and the following is what I found.
How do I say this? Land ownership is not exactly an appropriate thematic thing for this setting. The PF1 is pretty much the only source from either edition that touches on the subject that I know of and it is pretty clear in communicating that land/home ownership in the sense that we understand it under the western capitalist world order is generally not a thing on any large scale.
Outright ownership of land by commoners may be rare in a pseudo-medieval society, but noble patrons often grant property rights. Adventurers typically gain management rights over a section of arable land, which belongs to a noble either as an ancestral claim or a similar feudal grant from a ruler. When it comes to managing and working such land, adventurers may prefer to take a hands-off approach, hiring a bailiff or sheriff to oversee production and taxation. These details may then be left in the background, except when land ownership generates the occasional story hook or perhaps the occasional small profits (nothing rivaling the rewards of adventuring, of course). The PCs may periodically be called on to deal with marauders, repel invading rivals, or quell peasant rebellions.
In these anachronistic fantasy realms with, as they put it, pseudo-medieval societies individuals without title/claim/nobility would almost never OWN their land, home, farms, or businesses but rather simply take up residence wherever there is a reasonable vacancy and would have reign to run/operate/build/develop it as they see fit as long as they are certain to stay within the bounds of the given society/nation/city laws and norms they are governed by. Your family could very well inhabit a building or home for decades but this would mostly only ever happen if you're granted said right by the ACTUAL land owners who are the ruling class of the area.
To put it more generally, property rights like what are described do not fit the mold of what most people understand as home/land ownership. In most every region that's been expanded upon the setting has been notably silent on the matter and from this, I can only really conclude that either the creative design team did not want to stoop to dealing/caring/defining this kind of stuff or they left it absent because the idea of individual citizens having a legal claim to land on their own which would be protected and respected by all of the castes of their society without question is just alien and does not fit into the setting in any meaningful way given how the societies function.
Now, there are more generally capitalist nations that run based on democratic or republic-style rule and ideals and I'm sure there are probably ways (though they are not spelled out in the books) to purchase property within developed areas off of the previous tenants but even then I'm fairly certain that is more akin to transfer of a lease on a rental property where the new leaseholder would then take on the responsibility of maintaining the property and paying whatever local taxes might be due with any regularity. Even lore and descriptions about Druma (The primary region where people essentially worship/venerate money/capitalism via the Prophecies of Kalistrade) as well as all sections talking about Abadar, his church, and banks are completely silent on the topic of mortgages or any form or commonly available forms of land ownership which is pretty much the primary place where that kind of information would be detailed.
Ironically enough, all of this more or less leads me to believe that land ownership of any sort in the setting is intended to be handled in the River Kingdoms method whereby "you have what you hold" and by way of homesteading principles meaning that essentially if you occupy/build/develop it then THAT is the test to gauge is you OWN it and that means it is... essentially free. Now, of course, doing this in any highly developed area is likely to cause you to run into trouble with the local lords/nobility if you happen to try taking up space in some area that those in power would want to hold for themselves but again, that would simply bump you back into a situation where in such instances you'd need to be diplomatic and ask/appeal/apply for the legal right to use that land.
In summary, I do not think that digging into the setting will provide you with much to go on in terms of finding guidance here other than what I noted and discovered which suggests that land ownership, as we modern meatspace humans understand it, just does not exist on any grand scale in the setting at all. If this is something you want to handle for your party you're going to have to make it up and estimate something that is reasonably affordable for your own party. My suggestion here would be to look at the region they're in and work backward based on the type of government that nation/region has so as to give a thread from the PCs up into the leaders/nobles of the area by way of offering time-limited rights based most likely on taxation or as a mere reward for services offered.
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the Lost Omens Travel Guide actually has some information for Housing Costs. Including information for House Payments over a 10 year period, or the monthly rent for such a home.
For example a Wood Cottage (Comfortable Home) has a price of 300gp with a monthly payment of 6gp.
Monthly Rent for that same home would be 20gp.
It also advises that GMs can modify these costs but should remain within a 15% adjustment of the listed costs. The cost for additional rooms on a home are assumed to range between 5% to 15% of the home's base cost. So you could probably figure out the value with this section.
interesting... a 6gp monthly payment for a small cottage would eat up 100% of a skilled workers income for a month (30 days work) I gave them one day off about every other month. :)
The old Ultimate Campaign definitely had pricing for building/owning rooms for buildings, so the setting of Golarion has allowed for 'ownership' of property in general. Although you are right certain areas, there might be valid cultural aspects that might prevent even wealthy non-nobles from having land itself, and such. However in some cases the noble may officially possess/own the land, but the peasant or free-man may own the 'LEASE' to use the land for whatever given purpose (be it residential, or business, or both). The effect becoming similar, if not effectively the same for game purposes in different nations. However sales might be more effected when it is just a lease, but it might still be very possible to effectively sell your lease, as long as you don't sell it to the nobles family nemesis.
I have to admit I'm a bit surprised at the difference between rent and payments for the house being 6gp vs 20gp as that seems like that it would become a quick turn around for profit unless it is missing an expenses component. But then that makes me wonder if expenses would be an additional component that a home owner/borrower would need to factor in as well.
Or maybe a rent of 20gp would be only for a furnished cottage that was move in ready for people traveling through? (thus requiring additional capital investment for furniture and similar provided items) a 300gp investment having a 20gp/month recoup seems like way too good to be true without any expenses.
Certainly there is always the risk of losing your investment to bandits/deceit/fraud/war/famine/monsters/legal actions. (not to mention Acts of God).
Just as an example, to own a 300gp home, based on lump sum values, would place a 300gp valued cottage in the realm of a 5th level character. Earn income for an expert 5th level entity would run around 1gp/day, so I guess up to a 30gp income might be understandable if a building/capital investment has similar income potential for an individual with a similar economic basis/investment. I guess if you make it a passive income only yielding 2/3rds income that would get you 20gp. But that still seems like a lot for passive income. If the 2/3rds was viewed as a good target, you might look at have passive income investments drop level by potentially one level and potentially 1 skill tier. (Level 5 -1, Expert->Trained(1 rank down) = 7 sp/day x30 =210sp or about 21gp.
It really seems like while that income might be potentially reasonable, it would seem like it should have expenses associated with it if being treated as a passive income. Someone collecting the rent, and making sure the renter is happy with the accommodations and not going elsewhere. Maintaining and fixing things about the property and such, including potentially paying any taxes or dealing with other intrusions, natural or political.
That could drive down the profit from a 300gp investment from 240gp a year down to something closer to the 72gp per per year in payments, leaving a difference of 168gp a year. So if it yielded some 138gp in expenses a year that would still leave a 30gp profit per year, which would net a 10% annual yield on investment. However that expense almost seems like it would be equivalent to close to 2 FTE of 1st level workers to care for a cottage(if all expenses were service related). Maybe if half were materials and half service that might be easier to conceptualize but even having a single dedicated 1st level person taking care of each cottage seems like much.
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Yeah, this isn't exactly a real estate market type of game.
I would usually use the Earn Income tables for the PCs renting out property, but whichever.
From a game mechanics perspective, selling something and having it be a significant amount of money would mean that the price should be accounted for in the treasure earned for that character level. Pick a price somehow and the game mechanics really don't care how.
But if it is a level 17 character selling the house for 300 gp, then it probably doesn't need to be adjusted for.
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As for market value? Not really sure. Maybe purchase price of 10 years worth of the rent price? So 120x the monthly rent or about 6000x the weekly rent.
Sure thing. Game ins't that kind of game, maybe Pathfinder Monopoly, anyways. Thank you for the thoughts, indeed.
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It's a very interesting topic and one that I hadn't thought about before so I did some digging and the following is what I found...
Really helpful thoughts. I could consider, for example the "type" of government of every state. Nirmathas, wich is my actual campaing, does not have the "capitalism" type of ruler neither do its inhabitants. The land is free and anyone who can build, grow a land, protect it and respect the enviroment and the "laws" above, probably would not be bothered by another one claiming ownership on that piece of land.
Thanks again.