Frontline support Thaumaturge

[shroudb]

I really like the concept and execution of the Thaumaturge, you can bring so many themes out of the base chassis of this class.

As far as gameplay goes, I do though find them action starved. Between moving, finding weaknesses, striking, using Implement empowerment, other common miscellaneous actions that they might want to do like an Implement action, or a feat, or shareing weaknesses, and etc there's only so much you can fit within your 3 actions of a round.

I also love the general premise of frontline support characters. Someone being in the thick of it and assisting his allies from there.

So, here we go (this is a free archetype build trying to eek as much out of the action economy and support while staying relatively sturdy enough to dish it out in melee):

Halim was a lizardfolk shaman from deep within the jungle. From birth he was drilled with the esoteric knowledge of his tribe, the myths, the legends, the knowhow. The spirits guide him and whisper to him the weaknesses of his foes, the ancient traditions taught to him about the underlying principles of the world and everything within it. Using the raw materials of the land itself he can even create small shamanistic trinkets for him and his allies.
Alas, his tribe has fallen. At the last moment before disaster, the elder shaman, following his visions, entrusted the two most important items of the tribe to him, and urged him to leave. Clutching the amulet of the tribe shaman and the shield of the tribe warleader, he rode on his trusty mount companion away from the carnage.

Initial implement: amulet

Level 1: diverse lore
Level 2: talisman esoterica / Free archetype: Beastmaster
Level 4: heal companion / Free archetype: mature companion
LEvel 5: Regalia implement (the tribe shield)
Level 6: Sympathetic Vulnerabilities / Free archetype: Marshal dedication (diplomacy)
Level 8: Inspiring marshal stance / Free archetype: incredible companion
Level 10: Topple foe / Free archetype: Sentinel
Level 12: share weakness / Free archetype: Imp bullwark
Level 14: extra reaction / Free archetype: specialized companion
Level 15: chalice implement
Level 16: flight / Free archetype: specialized companion
Level 18: intense implement / Free archetype: specialized companion
Level 20: Ubiquitous weakness / Free archetype: second companion? (could also pick up that earlier alongside the multiple command feat instead of going all in the specialized companion)

implemets:
amulet of chief shaman
regalia: shield of the warleader
chalice: whatever, b level 15 you should have found something in your travels that should be of importance.

We use our beastmaster companion as a trusty mount to get us around the battlefield, freeing one of our actions. So we are mostly interested in something with high dex to get as much AC out of it as we can.
As a lizardfolk we have our big effing teeth as a weapon, it's not spectacular, just a d8 without any traits, but we also do not have to worry about hand issues.

Other ancestry feats can be thematic like the astrology based ones.

We have a free stride with the mount, and we don't have (at least early and mid levels) action implements, so we can strike, use our Intensify (regalia if we hit, amulet if we miss or if we are about to get a beating), and then either use a second strike (if we are pushing damage) or raise our shield (if we expect a thrashing). Ofc, third action should be our stance on the first round and afterwards could very well be a share weakness if we have that, or a chalice if we have that, or even a command (especially if you have multiple companions), a heal companion if needed, and etc. Options do exist.

Out of amulet and regalia, which one gets to adept first depends on the party.
If we have a lot of melee/close range characters, we pick up Regalia for the damage buff aura. If we need to have more sustain, we pick up amulet. Usually though I would go for Regalia first and then amulet. But for sure the paragon should go to Amulet to give party wide resistances.

We have inspiring stance for the attack buff for our allies and the regalia for the damage buff. We can negate some of the damage that the enemy do through our reaction. We can further increase attack buff through Intensify with the regalia.

We start with medium armor but upgrade to heavy at 3 with heavy armor proficiency, grab full plate at 5 when we hit our 18 strength. We retrain out of heavy armor proficiency after level 10 and pick something else instead.

I think that chalice as a third implement suppliments the build quite well, increasing the sustain/support a bit. We are also at a level that we should have ample access to haste/quicken so the action economy using that is actually managable.

[aobst128]

Implements empowerment doesn't cost you actions. It's just a passive. But overall, amulet and regalia are great at supporting a front line.

[shroudb]

aobst128 wrote:

Implements empowerment doesn't cost you actions. It's just a passive. But overall, amulet and regalia are great at supporting a front line.

I meant Intensity.

[Ed Reppert]

shroudb wrote:

Other ancestry feats can be thematic like the astrology based ones.

!? Where would one find these?

[shroudb]

Ed Reppert wrote:

shroudb wrote:

Other ancestry feats can be thematic like the astrology based ones.

!? Where would one find these?

Lizardmen have a couple of those.

I think there's one at 1,5,and 9.

They are also pretty good, giving skills, rerolls, and etc.

[Ed Reppert]

Hm.

[Ed Reppert]

Just for grins I tried building Halim following your suggestions. Maybe I messed it up, but here's what I came up with:

Halim
Male lizardfolk thaumaturge 20 (Advanced Player's Guide, Lost Omens Ancestry Guide, Lost Omens Character Guide)
Uncommon, N, Medium, Humanoid, Lizardfolk
Heritage wetlander lizardfolk
Background sodden scavenger
Perception +28
Languages Common, Iruxi, Kibwani
Skills Acrobatics +4, Arcana +23, Athletics +30, Diplomacy +33, Esoteric Lore +33, Intimidation +31, Nature +24, Occultism +29, Performance +27, Religion +24, Society +23, Stealth +4, Survival +24 (+25 when in Swamp terrain.), Swamp Lore +25, Thievery +4
Str 18 (+4), Dex 20 (+5), Con 20 (+5), Int 12 (+1), Wis 14 (+2), Cha 20 (+5)
Items animal companion, money, purse (11,128 pp, 720 gp)
--------------------
AC 40; Fort +31 (Successes are crit successes instead.); Ref +28; Will +30 (Critical failures are failures instead. On failure vs. damaging effect, take half damage., Successes are crit successes instead.); +2 status bonus vs. target of Exploit Vulnerability, +1 status bonus vs. fear, Successes vs. inhaled threats are crit successes instead., +1 circumstance bonus vs. inhaled threats.
HP 268
--------------------
Speed 20 feet, fly 10 feet, swim 5 feet; Implement's Flight
Melee [1] ghost touch claw +31 (agile, finesse, magical), Damage 1d4+10 S
Melee [1] ghost touch fangs +30 (magical), Damage 1d8+10
Focus Spells 1 Focus Point, DC 37; 10th Heal Animal
Greater Resolve Your unbelievable training grants you mental resiliency. Your proficiency rank for Will saves increases to legendary. When you roll a success on a Will save, you get a critical success. When you roll a critical failure on a Will save, you get a failure instead. When you roll a failure on a Will save against a damaging effect, you take half damage.
Juggernaut Your body is accustomed to physical hardship and resistant to ailments. Your proficiency rank for Fortitude saves increases to master. When you roll a success on a Fortitude save, you get a critical success instead.
Resolve You’ve steeled your mind with resolve. Your proficiency rank for Will saves increases to master. When you roll a success on a Will save, you get a critical success instead.
Ancestry Feats Consult The Stars[LOAG], Guided By The Stars[LOAG], Iruxi Spirit Strike[LOAG], Primal Rampage[LOCG], Read The Stars[LOAG], Sharp Fangs[LOCG]
Class Feats Diverse Lore, Esoteric Reflexes, Implement's Flight, Intense Implement, Share Weakness, Sympathetic Vulnerabilities, Talisman Esoterica, Ubiquitous Weakness
General Feats Ancestral Paragon, Armor Proficiency, Breath Control, Fast Recovery, Fleet, Incredible Scout[APG]
Skill Feats Battle Cry, Bon Mot[APG], Discreet Inquiry[APG], Disturbing Knowledge[APG], Dubious Knowledge, Forager, Legendary Negotiation, Steel Skin[APG], Terrain Expertise, Terrified Retreat, Unmistakable Lore, Water Sprint[APG]
Other Abilities amulet, animal companion, aquatic adaptation, chalice, esoteric lore, first implement and esoterica, implement adept, implement paragon, regalia, second adept, second implement, thaumaturge weapon expertise, thaumaturgic expertise, thaumaturgic mastery, third implement, unlimited esoterica, weapon specialization

Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free demo available at https://herolab.online
Pathfinder and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc., and are used under license.

Hm. I don't see the Free Archetype feats in here. Guess it's time for another bug report. Anyway, let's see....

Free Archetype Feats Beastmaster Dedication, Incredible Beastmaster Companion, Marshall Dedication, Mature Beastmaster Companion, Mighty Bulwark, Side by Side, Specialized Beastmaster Companion, Specialized Beastmaster Companion, Specialized Beastmaster Companion, Topple Foe

[shroudb]

Ed Reppert wrote:

Just for grins I tried building Halim following your suggestions. Maybe I messed it up, but here's what I came up with:

Halim
Male lizardfolk thaumaturge 20 (Advanced Player's Guide, Lost Omens Ancestry Guide, Lost Omens Character Guide)
Uncommon, N, Medium, Humanoid, Lizardfolk
Heritage wetlander lizardfolk
Background sodden scavenger
Perception +28
Languages Common, Iruxi, Kibwani
Skills Acrobatics +4, Arcana +23, Athletics +30, Diplomacy +33, Esoteric Lore +33, Intimidation +31, Nature +24, Occultism +29, Performance +27, Religion +24, Society +23, Stealth +4, Survival +24 (+25 when in Swamp terrain.), Swamp Lore +25, Thievery +4
Str 18 (+4), Dex 20 (+5), Con 20 (+5), Int 12 (+1), Wis 14 (+2), Cha 20 (+5)
Items animal companion, money, purse (11,128 pp, 720 gp)
--------------------
AC 40; Fort +31 (Successes are crit successes instead.); Ref +28; Will +30 (Critical failures are failures instead. On failure vs. damaging effect, take half damage., Successes are crit successes instead.); +2 status bonus vs. target of Exploit Vulnerability, +1 status bonus vs. fear, Successes vs. inhaled threats are crit successes instead., +1 circumstance bonus vs. inhaled threats.
HP 268
--------------------
Speed 20 feet, fly 10 feet, swim 5 feet; Implement's Flight
Melee [1] ghost touch claw +31 (agile, finesse, magical), Damage 1d4+10 S
Melee [1] ghost touch fangs +30 (magical), Damage 1d8+10
Focus Spells 1 Focus Point, DC 37; 10th Heal Animal
Greater Resolve Your unbelievable training grants you mental resiliency. Your proficiency rank for Will saves increases to legendary. When you roll a success on a Will save, you get a critical success. When you roll a critical failure on a Will save, you get a failure instead. When you roll a failure on a Will save against a damaging effect, you take half...

interesting approach.

i dont think i would personally go with such high Dex, i;d go with Str primary, you are in heavy from level 3 and onwards after all and we grab Imp. bulwark to help with reflexes.

i'm not sure about your skill ranks since those don't show, but since you do get a free trained->expert for diplomacy at level 6 when you grab Marshal, you should hold on to upgrading that one.

you are lacking Toughness from the general feats, which is a must imo, and you also still have armor taining which after level 10 can be safely retrained out of it since it does absolutely nothing for you.

Skill wise, i'd also pick up Acrobatics as at least trained imo. You do have flight speed, and you do need it for that at least (plus for a couple more uses/terrains/hazards)

Also not sure why Herolab lists yor speed as 20. It should be 25 in heavy armor.

[Ed Reppert]

Well, I had some difficulty figuring out where you were going with some things, so I'm not surprised this Halim is well, a bit different than you intended.

I didn't retrain out of armor training because I wasn't sure what you would replace it with.

At 20, he's expert in Swamp Lore, Master in Athletics and Intimidation, and Legendary in Diplomacy, Esoteric Lore, and Occultism. I'll have to check on when I upgraded diplomacy. Probably too early. :-)

He's not wearing heavy armor as I didn’t buy *any* gear for him. Which is why he has so much money.

What the heck, I'll try again. :-)

Is this closer to what you envisioned at level one?

Halim
Lizardfolk thaumaturge 1 (Lost Omens Character Guide)
Uncommon, N, Medium, Humanoid, Lizardfolk
Heritage wetlander lizardfolk
Background sodden scavenger
Perception +6
Languages Common, Iruxi
Skills Acrobatics +4, Arcana +3, Athletics +6, Diplomacy +5, Esoteric Lore +5, Nature +4, Occultism +3, Religion +4, Survival +4, Swamp Lore +3
Str 16 (+3), Dex 12 (+1), Con 14 (+2), Int 10 (+0), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 14 (+2)
Items breastplate, steel shield, backpack, bedroll, chalks (10), flint and steel, minor elixir of life, rations (1 week)s (2), rope (foot)s (50), soap, torchs (5), waterskin, purse (5 sp)
--------------------
AC 18 (20 with shield raised); Fort +7; Ref +4; Will +6; Successes vs. inhaled threats are crit successes instead., +1 circumstance bonus vs. inhaled threats.
HP 18
--------------------
Speed 25 feet, swim 15 feet
Melee [1] claw +6 (agile, finesse), Damage 1d4+3 S
Melee [1] fangs +6, Damage 1d8+3
Melee [1] shield bash +6, Damage 1d4+5 B
Ancestry Feats Sharp Fangs[LOCG]
Class Feats Diverse Lore
General Feats Breath Control
Skill Feats Dubious Knowledge, Forager
Other Abilities amulet, aquatic adaptation, esoteric lore, first implement and esoterica

Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free demo available at https://herolab.online
Pathfinder and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc., and are used under license.

[Ed Reppert]

Here he is at level 5:

Halim
Lizardfolk thaumaturge 5 (Advanced Player's Guide, Lost Omens Ancestry Guide, Lost Omens Character Guide)
Uncommon, N, Medium, Humanoid, Lizardfolk
Heritage wetlander lizardfolk
Background sodden scavenger
Perception +10
Languages Common, Iruxi
Skills Acrobatics +9, Arcana +7, Athletics +13, Diplomacy +10, Esoteric Lore +12, Nature +8, Occultism +9, Religion +8, Survival +8, Swamp Lore +7
Str 18 (+4), Dex 14 (+2), Con 16 (+3), Int 10 (+0), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 16 (+3)
Items +1 full plate (bronze bull pendant), steel shield (shield boss), backpack, bedroll, chalks (10), flint and steel, lesser antidote, lesser antiplague, lesser juggernaut mutagen, lesser smokestick, minor elixirs of life (3), rations (1 week)s (2), rope (foot)s (50), soap, tindertwigs (5), torchs (5), waterskin, animal companion, money, purse (3 pp, 3 gp)
--------------------
AC 24 (26 with shield raised); Fort +12; Ref +11; Will +10; Successes vs. inhaled threats are crit successes instead., +1 circumstance bonus vs. inhaled threats.
HP 63
--------------------
Speed 20 feet, swim 10 feet
Melee [1] claw +13 (agile, finesse), Damage 1d4+4 S
Melee [1] fangs +13, Damage 1d8+4
Melee [1] shield boss +13 (attached to shield), Damage 1d6+6 B
Focus Spells 1 Focus Point, DC 20; 3rd Heal Animal
Ancestry Feats Guided By The Stars[LOAG], Sharp Fangs[LOCG]
Class Feats Diverse Lore, Talisman Esoterica
Free Archetype Feats Beastmaster Dedication, Mature Beastmaster Companion
General Feats Armor Proficiency, Breath Control
Skill Feats Bon Mot[APG], Dubious Knowledge, Forager, Unmistakable Lore
Other Abilities amulet, animal companion, aquatic adaptation, esoteric lore, first implement and esoterica, regalia, second implement, thaumaturge weapon expertise

Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free demo available at https://herolab.online
Pathfinder and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc., and are used under license.

Expert in Athletics, Esoteric Lore, and Occultism.

And...

Jay-Jay
Male dromaeosaur
N, Medium, Animal, Minion
low-light vision, scent (imprecise) 30 feet
Skills Acrobatics +11, Athletics +10, Intimidation +7, Stealth +13, Survival +9
Str +3, Dex +4, Con +3, Int -4, Wis +2, Cha +0
--------------------
AC 21; Fort +12; Ref +13; Will +11
HP 51
--------------------
Speed 50 feet
Melee [1] jaws +11 (finesse), Damage 2d8+3 P
Melee [1] talon +11 (agile, finesse), Damage 2d6+3 S

Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free demo available at https://herolab.online
Pathfinder and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc., and are used under license.

Can't ride him yet. Maybe I should have started with a companion that starts at medium, but then I don't know how good his dexterity would be. We'll see.

[shroudb]

yeah, that looks much closer.

i would probably start with 16 Cha and either 10 in Dex or 8 in Int.
I would also not raise Dex at 5, by that point i would expect to have a fullplate and it would be redundant compared to something else (wisdom or intelligence).

And sadly, while dromosaur is the best AC for that kind of character, his size makes it indeed unavalaible to us. We need something that starts at medium so we can ride it at 4+.
I personally like the Monitor Lizard, which while it doesn't have the best dex, it fits thematically with a lizard riding a lizard!
Although probably a simple Horse is better (better speed and better support benefit)

Equipment-wise, i would first get my strinking +1 handwraps (100gp) before i would apply the +1 to the fullplate (160gp)

[Ed Reppert]

Here he is at level 10:

Halim
Male lizardfolk thaumaturge 10 (Advanced Player's Guide, Lost Omens Ancestry Guide, Lost Omens Character Guide)
Uncommon, N, Medium, Humanoid, Lizardfolk
Heritage wetlander lizardfolk
Background sodden scavenger
Perception +17
Languages Common, Iruxi
Skills Acrobatics +15, Arcana +12, Athletics +18 (+20 for High Jump and Long Jump actions.), Diplomacy +21, Esoteric Lore +20, Nature +13, Occultism +17, Religion +13, Stealth +3 (+4 when match current environment), Survival +13 (+14 when in Swamp terrain.), Swamp Lore +14
Str 19 (+4), Dex 16 (+3), Con 18 (+4), Int 10 (+0), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 18 (+4)
Items +1 resilient full plate (bronze bull pendant), steel shield (+1 striking shield boss), backpack, bedroll, belt of good health, boots of bounding, chalks (10), cloak of elvenkind, cloak of feline rest[SoM], diplomat's badge, flint and steel, lesser antidote, lesser antiplague, lesser juggernaut mutagen, lesser smokestick, minor elixirs of life (3), moderate antidote, moderate antiplague, moderate healing potions (2), moderate juggernaut mutagens (2), pendant of the occult, rations (1 week)s (2), ring of cold resistance, rope (foot)s (50), soap, tindertwigs (5), torchs (5), waterskin, animal companion, money, purse (19 pp, 4 gp)
--------------------
AC 29 (31 with shield raised); Fort +19; Ref +18; Will +18 (Successes are crit successes instead.); +2 status bonus vs. target of Exploit Vulnerability, +1 status bonus vs. fear, Successes vs. inhaled threats are crit successes instead., +1 circumstance bonus vs. inhaled threats.
HP 142; Resistances cold 5
--------------------
Speed 25 feet, swim 10 feet
Melee [1] [i]+1 striking shield boss[/i] +19 (attached to shield, magical), Damage 2d6+10 B
Melee [1] claw +18 (agile, finesse), Damage 1d4+6 S
Melee [1] fangs +18, Damage 1d8+6
Focus Spells 1 Focus Point, DC 26; 5th Heal Animal
Resolve You’ve steeled your mind with resolve. Your proficiency rank for Will saves increases to master. When you roll a success on a Will save, you get a critical success instead.
Ancestry Feats Guided By The Stars[LOAG], Read The Stars[LOAG], Sharp Fangs[LOCG]
Class Feats Diverse Lore, Sympathetic Vulnerabilities, Talisman Esoterica
Free Archetype Feats Beastmaster Dedication, Incredible Beastmaster Companion, Marshal Dedication, Mature Beastmaster Companion, Sentinel Dedication
General Feats Breath Control, Diehard, Toughness
Skill Feats Bon Mot[APG], Discreet Inquiry[APG], Dubious Knowledge, Forager, Powerful Leap, Terrain Expertise, Unmistakable Lore
Other Abilities amulet, animal companion, aquatic adaptation, esoteric lore, first implement and esoterica, implement adept, regalia, second implement, thaumaturge weapon expertise, thaumaturgic expertise, weapon specialization

Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free demo available at https://herolab.online
Pathfinder and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc., and are used under license.

And the companion:

Jay-Jay
Male dromaeosaur
N, Medium, Animal, Minion
low-light vision, scent (imprecise) 30 feet
Skills Acrobatics +20, Athletics +16, Intimidation +12, Stealth +20, Survival +15
Str +4, Dex +6, Con +4, Int -4, Wis +3, Cha +0
--------------------
AC 28; Fort +18; Ref +20; Will +17
HP 106
--------------------
Speed 50 feet
Melee [1] jaws +18 (finesse), Damage 2d8+6 P
Melee [1] talon +18 (agile, finesse), Damage 2d6+6 S
Other Abilities darting attack

Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free demo available at https://herolab.online
Pathfinder and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc., and are used under license.

I see that I've gone from "don't bother with gear" to "spend as much as possible on gear". :-)

[Ed Reppert]

Aha. I see why I couldn't find Monitor Lizard as an animal companion in HeroLab, I think. It doesn't appear to be in there at all. I did find it in AoN. Bug report submitted.