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Hi all! I know there are some older threads about healing undead, but I wanted to ask a few questions now that Basic Undead Benefits and the like exist. Here's a few things that I think I understand but may be wrong:
So given that, is this correct for these potential healing sources?
Those are my main questions for now, please set me straight on anything I'm misunderstanding. Thanks!
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Heal doesn't work on anything with negative healing, undead, or basic undead benefits traits/abilities.
Yes, Heal will hurt any of them. (But there are still people who will say that the way Heal and Harm are written, with whether the target is living or dead changing whether they do healing if one type or damage of the other prevents them from actually affecting dhampirs in the same way as undead. Plenty of threads arguing about that which you can search for in this forum.)
Harm works on all of the above.
Yes. Same note as Heal.
Soothe is written as working on undead (AON, Healing Undead), but targets a 'willing living creature'. This should work on Dhampir and Revenants as it isn't positive, but how can it target undead or basic undead benefits characters?
No one is entirely sure if that sidebar is creating an exception to normal rules that it fails to explain, or offering bad advice that doesn't work with established rules. There have been other threads about this.
In the same section about Healing Undead, an Elixir of Life is mentioned as not working. This sorta makes sense given the mention of living creatures in the text there, but how can it not work if Soothe supposedly does work?
Under pressure BotD rules, it would definitely not work because the Undead trait includes immunity to Healing, and the Elixir has the Healing trait. Soothe also has the Healing trait, which is I art of why no one knows why that sidebar says that Soothe works.
So the short answer is "that sidebar is kind of a mess, official clarification hasn't happened and universal consensus doesn’t exist. If you're going to allow Undead PCs in your game, you'll have some decisions to make."
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Hi all! I know there are some older threads about healing undead, but I wanted to ask a few questions now that Basic Undead Benefits and the like exist. Here's a few things that I think I understand but may be wrong:
Dhampir and Revenants are living creatures, but with the negative healing ability that prevents positive healing and makes them count as undead for negative healing. Skeletons, ghouls, vampires etc are undead but with the basic undead benefits, which prevents positive healing but not other sources of healing. So given that, is this correct for these potential healing sources?
Heal doesn't work on anything with negative healing, undead, or basic undead benefits traits/abilities.
Harm works on all of the above.
Soothe is written as working on undead (AON, Healing Undead), but targets a 'willing living creature'. This should work on Dhampir and Revenants as it isn't positive, but how can it target undead or basic undead benefits characters?
In the same section about Healing Undead, an Elixir of Life is mentioned as not working. This sorta makes sense given the mention of living creatures in the text there, but how can it not work if Soothe supposedly does work? Those are my main questions for now, please set me straight on anything I'm misunderstanding. Thanks!
I believe Basic undead benefits trump the Undead trait, as you appear to.
Others believe they do not.
In either case, Soothe should not work because of the living target thing.
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Yeah, the line "These are somewhat different from the normal undead creature abilities to better fit player characters." from Basic Undead Benefits sounds like it overrides conflicting bits from the Undead trait, so that non-positive healing-trait effects are allowed by being omitted from the BUB Negative Healing section. It wouldn't need the Negative Healing section otherwise, as the Undead trait would cover the rules for that by themselves?
I suppose I can accept the 'just because' section in Book of the Dead, but I really wish the rules themselves supported it as opposed to it being a patch on top of everything. Thanks the replies!
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Either way, there's nothing in it that suggests you don't have to deal with not benefiting from the Healing trait.
Fair enough, although now I'm wondering if there are any healing-tagged effects that can actually target undead? Soothe is living targets only, an Elixir of Life mentions the living in its text, etc.
Either way, there's nothing in it that suggests you don't have to deal with not benefiting from the Healing trait.Fair enough, although now I'm wondering if there are any healing-tagged effects that can actually target undead? Soothe is living targets only, an Elixir of Life mentions the living in its text, etc.
Look at items that actually say they heal undead: Harm and Oil of Unlife. The traits they have in common are Necromancy and Negative. Then looking at Negative, it says "Effects with this trait heal undead creatures with negative energy, deal negative damage to living creatures, or manipulate negative energy. Add that to Undead don't benefit from healing effects, and you can see that it'd be an odd effect that had Healing and worked on undead as that isn't the trait associated with healing undead.
If you want to get technical, the Heal spell has the healing trait and I don't think the text of the spell explicitly removes that trait when it affects undead. Of course, there's no ambiguity about what is supposed to happen with regard to Heal affecting undead (at least, the fully undead), but with sufficient pedantry any point of contention can be bickered over.
For obvious reasons, there are numerous healing effects which can target dead creatures but... oh hey here's one. Spirit Link is a healing effect which targets "1 willing creature", but it's also explicit about how it interacts with undead:
Since this effect doesn't involve positive or negative energy, spirit link works even if you or the target is undead.
An example of a healing spell which explicitly is intended to function even if it targets an undead creature (and obviously is a specific-beats-general exception, not so much a case against the general rule).
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I think it would do a lot of good if the "don't benefit from healing effects" clause under the Undead trait was removed. After that, change target entries that specify undead vs living on non-positive effects as appropriate to intent.
If implemented together, the sole gatekeepers of healing HP on undead is simply the Positive trait and target entries that specify "living creature". Easy to remember and, in my opinion, the least disruptive change to already established rules and trait configurations.
I'm admittedly biased because there are several healing effects without the Positive trait and any HP restoration and can naturally target undead, which I think would be great boons for Undead campaigns and PCs. The big utility Rs: Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Remove Paralysis, Restoration, Restore Senses
I've also always thought Soothe's distinction of having the Healing trait but no Positive trait was meant it was a neat healing spell that could heal non-mindless Undead. It seemed perfectly thematic for the Occult-exclusive healing spell. Then I'm saddened when I remember both the target entry and the Undead trait presents a double threat invalidation.
Wishful thinking something is in the works. Even before BotD, this has been a common topic of confusion for new and old players alike, and it still is. It took a while to grasp as well, so I get it. But ever since the contradictions brought by the undead book, of all things, I think an errata is reasonably called for at this point.
If you want to get technical, the Heal spell has the healing trait and I don't think the text of the spell explicitly removes that trait when it affects undead. Of course, there's no ambiguity about what is supposed to happen with regard to Heal affecting undead (at least, the fully undead), but with sufficient pedantry any point of contention can be bickered over.If you read the Undead trait, it says you cannot benefit from healing effects. Getting punched in the mouth by positive energy and taking damage isn't a benefit.
Ooh, good point on the linguistic hair split, that totally solves the question of heal. (Now I want an even more obnoxiously pedantic argument about undead being unable to 'benefits from Heal by harming each other... but that stretches the already frayed edged of plausibility XD)
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I wouldn't normally suggest this but the rules are clearly broken. So rather than get bogged down in the technicality of the rules, I try to go with what I think is intended:
The best way forward is to
1) Ignore the undead trait details. Consider it just to be a marker. As the details are restated more specifically in basic undead benefits, in negative healing, and in the creature details themselves.
2) Ignore the targeting restrictions on living or undead wherever they occur. Instead choose the effect based off whether or not the target has Negative Healing. If they have Negative Healing treat them as Undead.
3) Do not allow any Positive Healing to work on creatures with Negative Healing. But allow unsigned Healing to work on all kinds of creatures.
So this means Soothe can heal undead, and you can cast Harm to heal Dhampirs and Revenants.
Constructs are another matter.
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I wouldn't normally suggest this but the rules are clearly broken. So rather than get bogged down in the technicality of the rules, I try to go with what I think is intended:
The best way forward is to
1) Ignore the undead trait details. Consider it just to be a marker. As the details are restated more specifically in basic undead benefits, in negative healing, and in the creature details themselves.2) Ignore the targeting restrictions on living or undead wherever they occur. Instead choose the effect based off whether or not the target has Negative Healing. If they have Negative Healing treat them as Undead.
3) Do not allow any Positive Healing to work on creatures with Negative Healing. But allow unsigned Healing to work on all kinds of creatures.
So this means Soothe can heal undead, and you can cast Harm to heal Dhampirs and Revenants.
Constructs are another matter.
Seems pretty reasonable as a home patch to the rules, I may put this in from of my GM and group to see what they think!