Mirror image and effects with multiple targets

[breithauptclan]

Mostly a question about balance, though if there are explicit rules about this I would be happy to hear that too.

If an enemy has cast Mirror Image on themselves, can you target two of the images (one possibly the actual caster, and one certainly one of the fake images) with a spell or ability that has multiple targets.

So something like Electric Arc, Scorching Ray (which could potentially target up to three of the images, possibly one real and two definitely fake), or Swipe.

[HumbleGamer]

I say it doesn't allow you to do so.

Mechanically speaking, we can say it's just similar to the concealed or hidden condition. When you attack the target, there's a chance you miss it.

Quote:

Any attack that would hit you has a random chance of hitting one of your images instead of you.

[aobst128]

You still only count as one valid target. I see mirror image as basically a supercharged concealed.

[breithauptclan]

The purpose is to deliberately target one of the images to destroy it. Possibly hitting the caster in the process, but guaranteed (as long as you don't critically fail the attack) to destroy a fake image.

For something like a solo boss, that tactic would have no additional cost when using Electric Arc. Swipe and Scorching Ray would both cost an extra action.

A similar, but slightly different idea would be to simply make two or more Strike actions. One targeting one of the images and one targeting a different one.

But at that point it is better to just roll to hit the caster each time, because even if you miss because of not beating the AC or because the miss chance happens, you still destroy an image, but if you beat the AC both times and succeed at the miss chance, then you do damage on both attacks. Though you don't destroy an image at that point. Which doesn't help your allies any.

[HumbleGamer]

But the purpose of mirror image is to shield themselves a limited number or times ( 3 ) with odds reduced, the more the images are hit.

Making it explode in 1 multi target hit would make it potentially worse than the concealed condition, which usually lasts more, not to say the improved invisibility ( or barskin, stone skin, or similar effects).

[Baarogue]

"images" aren't a valid target for any of the spells you mentioned so the spell would fail to target them. For Swipe, the caster counts as only one foe no matter how many images there are

[Baarogue]

here's a fun thought though. Mirror Image is a visual effect. If you're spitballing ways to counter it, consider the odds of hitting a target protected by Mirror Image vs hitting a hidden target, i.e., one you can't see because you've closed your eyes and are thus blind and so immune to visual effects

[Errenor]

HumbleGamer wrote:

But the purpose of mirror image is to shield themselves a limited number or times ( 3 ) with odds reduced, the more the images are hit.

Not at all. This version is so bad it doesn't even give that: an image is destroyed on a normal AC miss! I really hate this design. It's not a 'feels bad' spell, it's 'feels terrible'.

[HumbleGamer]

Errenor wrote:

HumbleGamer wrote:

But the purpose of mirror image is to shield themselves a limited number or times ( 3 ) with odds reduced, the more the images are hit.

Not at all. This version is so bad it doesn't even give that: an image is destroyed on a normal AC miss! I really hate this design. It's not a 'feels bad' spell, it's 'feels terrible'.

It seems solid to me, as a lvl 2 spell.

The fact it also destroy an image on a miss seems to work like the nimble dodge feat, which has to be activated not knowing whether you'll be hit or not.

In the same way, the enemy could consider hitting you a second time, not knowing if it would result in a critical failure, a failure or a hit.

Consider you already have

Quote:

there is a 1 in 4 chance of hitting you (1 on 1d4). With two images remaining, there is a 1 in 3 chance of hitting you (1–2 on 1d6). With only one image, the chances are 1 in 2 (1–3 on 1d6)

So, assuming every hit destroys an image, you are going to have

-75% chances to avoid the first attack.
-66% chances to avoid the second attack
-50% chances to avoid the third attack

a concealed condition would give you 20% chances to avoid, while the hidden condition would give you 50% chances.

Consider also that either concealed and hidden condition affects your healer, while mirror image doesn't ( only affects attacks ).

Finally, unless very bad luck in terms of rolls, there are high chances that before you got hit, all images are gone.

[breithauptclan]

Errenor wrote:

HumbleGamer wrote:

But the purpose of mirror image is to shield themselves a limited number or times ( 3 ) with odds reduced, the more the images are hit.

Not at all. This version is so bad it doesn't even give that: an image is destroyed on a normal AC miss! I really hate this design. It's not a 'feels bad' spell, it's 'feels terrible'.

Yeah, this question is actually coming from a game that I am playing. I'm a caster with martial weapon proficiency. Normally I only rarely make weapon attacks, and never more than one per round because my accuracy is good but not great, and my damage is quite sub-par.

Except in this case. My plan is to spam arrows at the enemy caster because all I need to do is not critically fail. Even the attack at -10 has a reasonable chance to at least only miss. And that will clear out the images in one round so that the heavy hitters can hit more reliably.

[Baarogue]

this isn't directed at you, breith, or anyone else here. I just feel a compulsion to say it if only to help other players or GMs encountering this or similar situations and are curious how a character could know how to deal with a specific spell

The ins and outs of spell effects, especially the particularly meta knowledge that you only have to miss to wink out a Mirror Image's image, or my suggestion to close your eyes so you're not affected, isn't common knowledge even in a fairly high magic setting as Golarion. Identifying a spell is only automatic if a character has the spell prepared or in their repertoire. Anyone else must use an action to Recall Knowledge

[breithauptclan]

Baarogue wrote:

this isn't directed at you, breith, or anyone else here. I just feel a compulsion to say it if only to help other players or GMs encountering this or similar situations and are curious how a character could know how to deal with a specific spell

The ins and outs of spell effects, especially the particularly meta knowledge that you only have to miss to wink out a Mirror Image's image, or my suggestion to close your eyes so you're not affected, isn't common knowledge even in a fairly high magic setting as Golarion. Identifying a spell is only automatic if a character has the spell prepared or in their repertoire. Anyone else must use an action to Recall Knowledge

Yes, agreed.

Used Recognize Spell. And is a spellcaster to boot, though doesn't have access to the traditions that include Mirror Image, so can't use the spell himself.

[Errenor]

Baarogue wrote:

Identifying a spell is only automatic if a character has the spell prepared or in their repertoire. Anyone else must use an action to Recall Knowledge

Recognize Spell allows to automatically recognize spells if your corresponding skill (Arcana, Occultism, Nature, Religion) is high enough (up to 6th level on master) with a reaction and a skill check otherwise. You don't even need to be a spellcaster at all, btw. And I see very little reason to not take this feat on a spellcaster at least, at first several char levels.

And when you know what the spell is, you know everything about it, even such subtle things that sluggishly waving your weapons in the general direction of mirror copies destroys them :)

[Castilliano]

One thing that might help with the meta on how targeting works is that these images aren't distinct pseudo-creatures in their own spaces (like say Illusory Creatures are). All the Mirror Images share the same area and bob and weave throughout one another or "swirl" as the spell description says. So it's obviously one target which to untrained eyes might even look like a gross aberration. :-)

[arcady]

This just came up in our game, so I'm necroing this thread.

Caster one has Mirror Image up, and is down to an image plus themselves.

Caster two casts Electric Arc at caster one.

What exactly... happens?

The descriptions on these two abilities almost seem tailor written to not answer the question when they come up against each other.

While the way it's getting handled is done in the current game - I'm curious now, for future reference when next I GM; as this looks like an issue that should pop up a lot given how popular these spells are.

[Gortle]

Technically Electric Arc just targets Caster One because mirror image says potentially causing those who attack you to hit one of the images.

If it said target instead of attack then one of the arcs would go to the image as well.

I expect some GMS might do that just for better flavour.

Saving throws completely circumvent Mirror Image, but not concealment.

[Errenor]

arcady wrote:

What exactly... happens?

Electric Arc goes through as normal. Mirror images aren't destroyed though.

MI doesn't interact with save effects at all.

[Farien]

mumble mumble spammers.

Just let finished threads die.

[Gortle]

Farien wrote:

Just let finished threads die.

So you do care after all? That the rules say something quite different to how the special effects read. It grates, doesn't it?