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Thanks, Paizo. This is definitely my new favorite class. The flavor and the mechanics gel so well, I'm just so excited to play it. I love the new implements so much, and the tweaks to the existing ones.
I love that Mirror can make shadow clones. I love that Tome can take an overnight study break and then be Legendary in whatever Lore they want. I love that Lantern just completely shuts down invisibility but doesn't interfere with your allies using illusions. I love Chalise having a basically total panacea. "I have no idea what is in this, but it fixes everything."
Haven't been this excited about a class since 1e Kineticist, honestly.
Now excuse me, I'm off to make a regalia/tome/wand Thaumaturge named Gideon Ofnir...
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... Also reading the feats is immediately making me think of a Gwenpool style character whose material component for Divine Disharmony is her collection of deity slashfics. XD
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... Also reading the feats is immediately making me think of a Gwenpool style character whose material component for Divine Disharmony is her collection of deity slashfics. XD
“Not only does your blasphemous story present Master Asmodeus in a relationship with Erastil, one of his most enduring enemies, it is also riddled with typos!”
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I think it is cool how Paizo is applying lessons from past classes to improve the new ones. People complained about rogues having bespoke weapon list, and every class published since is proficient in all simple or all martial. People complained about the swashbuckler's skill increases being locked in, so the Inventor and Thaumaturge got automatic skill increases in their key skill. People got frustrated with failing those skill checks, so the Thaumaturge still gets something on a failure.
The only thing it really has against it is the cha primary stat and using reaction triggering interact actions a lot. Even with those, it operates comfortably at about the same level as most crb classes without requiring a specific build and its mechanics don't get in the way of its functionality.
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Thanks everyone! I'm glad you enjoyed. Thaumaturge really benefited from playtest feedback and from everyone on the design team giving strong iterative advice.
It's such a cool class, I love the abilities and the overall design.
Few minor quibbles, I don't like how squishy it is, I don't like that it's sort of walled off from certain weapon choices, but overall it's just really neat.
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It's maybe my personal new favorite PF2 class as well - excellent built-in flavor (and plenty of ways to spin in), amazing roleplay potential, fun playstyle, loads of build permutations from the start, great feats... And the iconic is masculine-nonbinary.
And it's especially impressive because I was just kinda like "it's cool, I guess?" when the playtest first came out - so to go from that to it being maybe my #1 favorite class is a pretty big accomplishment.
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loads of build permutations from the start
I ran into a serious problem reading it over where each new implement I was like "oh man, I totally want to base a character around this implement!".
Three implements just isn't enough. XD
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loads of build permutations from the startI ran into a serious problem reading it over where each new implement I was like "oh man, I totally want to base a character around this implement!".
Three implements just isn't enough. XD
I'm coming up with a lack of hands for all the implements I want to use: Time to learn Juggle!
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I love that it can fit so many character fantasies. I can play a ninja, a Van Helsing imitator and an antiquarian with the same class.
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I love that it can fit so many character fantasies. I can play a ninja, a Van Helsing imitator and an antiquarian with the same class.
Honestly Dark Archive as a whole has blown me away so much.
I can't believe we got Van Helsing, X-Men, time loops and mirror people all in one book.
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It really is a fantastic class, it requires some juggling to take its potential to infinity, but even without all the dark research and math, it's a versatile and well-rounded class! My favorite!!!!
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Thaumaturge really gets into the specific thing that makes me love Pathfinder: the ability to look at rules text and be inspired to make a character around it. "That's crazy, what can I do with it?" "That's so cool, it makes me think of..." etc etc. I'm here to make stories out of math and the Thaum delivers on that splendidly.
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Thaumaturge really gets into the specific thing that makes me love Pathfinder: the ability to look at rules text and be inspired to make a character around it. "That's crazy, what can I do with it?" "That's so cool, it makes me think of..." etc etc. I'm here to make stories out of math and the Thaum delivers on that splendidly.
It really does. I think that's part of what I love so much about implements - they're just these beautiful, chunky pieces of crunch and flavor agglomerated together so that I can start by grabbing the things I want mechanically and then magically have a really interesting bit of core foundation to build the rest of the character on.
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Yep. Everything that the class has going for it is very fun to try to build around. Especially when finding what implements to combo. Like mirror is very cool, but becomes even cooler when you realize that you can duplicate your regalia aura or your amulet area of effect. Even with all the weird mechanical stuff, it all fits the identity. I kinda see the class as the magic item specialist but rather than simply using magic items, items are your magic, weather or not they actually have any magic themselves. My main problem now is that I don't know what to play with so many good options.
The same "problem" I'm having, there are so many options and each one is wonderful that I just can't decide which one to use! All are sensational! I can't wait for this book to be available in Pathbuilder to play with more hard, and I also can't wait for builds and guides to start appearing to help me in the "hard task"! Personally I'm a fan of "go up and hit hard" but Thaumaturge has so many options that I really don't know which function to use! And that's fantastic!
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Thaumaturge might be my favorite 2e class, it has so many options, its fluff is wonderful. I've been excited for it for months and it still blew my expectations out of the water.
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The biggest reason I avoid martials in rpgs is that they are generally built one dealing as much damage as possible, but to me, HP damage is probably the least engaging part of combat. To me, abilities that influence the situations in battle are far more interesting, which is why I tend to favor casters.
That said, I like still having a weapon I can rely on, since supporting is good, but it's still nice to do some fighting; combat heavy sessions aren't super fun when you can't jump in at all.
The Thaumaturge delivers a wonderful blend of this. A very skilled combatant, the Thaumaturge also packs a lot of tools, and can fill many different roles, depending on your implement and feat choices, and has plenty of skills, lending noncombat utility as well. The flavor is very cool, and also flexible; Ive theorycrafted four thaums, and all of them are very distinct, and yet match the class without having to get super deep into reflavoring abilities. I really like this class, it's easily one of my favorites
Huh. In retrospect, the Thaumaturge really is everything I wanted it to be, too.
I wanted it to be:
- Non-terrible
- A stepping-stone towards true slotless magic-primary characters.
It has solidly delivered on both counts.
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Thaumaturge has made me want to redirect my 1e gnome flag waving bard concept, but as a regalia thaumaturge (the flag being the regalia) with the marshal archetype.
" You might be a 30 foot tall dragon that can disintegrate with a breath.... But I have a flag !!"
**Waves flag agressively!!**
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Thaumaturge has made me want to redirect my 1e gnome flag waving bard concept, but as a regalia thaumaturge (the flag being the regalia) with the marshal archetype.
" You might be a 30 foot tall dragon that can disintegrate with a breath.... But I have a flag !!"
**Waves flag agressively!!**
I really love how you can be so flipping confident that your allies just... believe they are unflankable.
"They have us surrounded!"
"No, look there - our fearless leader fights with his back to the wall, and so shall we!"
"...We don't have a wall."
"His leadership is ever our wall! To arms!"
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I'm kind of wondering how well it plays in multiclassing, especially with other CHA-based classes like Oracle and Champion...Is it bad that my first instinct on reading a cool new class is "How can I combine it with other classes?" I feel like I gravitate towards multiclassed characters way too frequently when I should be satisfied with the base class as is...
I'm kind of wondering how well it plays in multiclassing, especially with other CHA-based classes like Oracle and Champion...Is it bad that my first instinct on reading a cool new class is "How can I combine it with other classes?" I feel like I gravitate towards multiclassed characters way too frequently when I should be satisfied with the base class as is...
Free Archetype is a thing for a reason.
Just saying.
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I'm kind of wondering how well it plays in multiclassing, especially with other CHA-based classes like Oracle and Champion...Is it bad that my first instinct on reading a cool new class is "How can I combine it with other classes?" I feel like I gravitate towards multiclassed characters way too frequently when I should be satisfied with the base class as is...Free Archetype is a thing for a reason.
Just saying.
An OPTIONAL thing. I shouldn't just assume a potential GM will use it and pre-build characters that way. That's like adjusting the recipe of a new food you're trying for the first time before you've tasted it in the original way and learned what aspects of it you might want to change, or downloading mods for a video game before you've even hit START.
I have the same problem with Gestalt from older editions: if it was meant to be a regular experience it would have been included in the core rules of the game and be what everyone defaults to...
An OPTIONAL thing. I shouldn't just assume a potential GM will use it and pre-build characters that way. That's like adjusting the recipe of a new food you're trying for the first time before you've tasted it in the original way and learned what aspects of it you might want to change, or downloading mods for a video game before you've even hit START.I have the same problem with Gestalt from older editions: if it was meant to be a regular experience it would have been included in the core rules of the game and be what everyone defaults to...
I have this concern when I start my next game. I've been using FA for a while, but my next game is going to have a survival theme and I don't want to use FA since resource management is intended to be a thing of consideration. Additionally, I wanted to really play up rewards for actions taken, and make more of the extra abilities given as quest rewards in the form of relics and the like
I'm kind of wondering how well it plays in multiclassing, especially with other CHA-based classes like Oracle and Champion...Is it bad that my first instinct on reading a cool new class is "How can I combine it with other classes?" I feel like I gravitate towards multiclassed characters way too frequently when I should be satisfied with the base class as is...
Nothing wrong with it. Champions will appreciate the bonus damage, which they have trouble coming by, at least at early levels, and it gives them back a pseudo smite evil they lost from PF2. Extra skill increases are also nice on a class that probably can't afford much intelligence or wisdom.
Battle Oracle could get similar gains, but their action economy is kinda tight.
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The thing I notice is that Thaum gets really easy access to Champion, which both offers an armor upgrade and lets you grab that Champion reaction, if you want to spend your implements on other things. Blade Ally can also be pretty nice, especially if you're wielding something like a whip.
"I like to call it 'syncretism'."
...and now I'm putting that together in my head with the thought about using the fan so that you can use electric arc rather than the wand and I'm getting a tengu with a whip in full platemail spewing lightning, while he repeats statements and phrases that he's been told by others, declaring that they apply to this foe too.
It's... an image.
I'm kind of wondering how well it plays in multiclassing, especially with other CHA-based classes like Oracle and Champion...Is it bad that my first instinct on reading a cool new class is "How can I combine it with other classes?" I feel like I gravitate towards multiclassed characters way too frequently when I should be satisfied with the base class as is...Free Archetype is a thing for a reason.
Just saying.
An OPTIONAL thing. I shouldn't just assume a potential GM will use it and pre-build characters that way. That's like adjusting the recipe of a new food you're trying for the first time before you've tasted it in the original way and learned what aspects of it you might want to change, or downloading mods for a video game before you've even hit START.
I have the same problem with Gestalt from older editions: if it was meant to be a regular experience it would have been included in the core rules of the game and be what everyone defaults to...
I mean, if I'm baking a desert, and the recipe doesn't mention cinnamon, I'm adding cinnamon immediately. And the primary reason FA wasn't in the CRB, was because there were no non-multiclass archetypes. It was in the 3rd book to ever be published in the mainline books, and Paizo have all but made a press statement saying it's 'the intended' way. I prebuild all my characters with it in mind, because it's very easy to remove should the GM (for whatever reason) not like/wat us using FA.
On a complexity scale of 1 to 5, how complex would you guys rate using the thaumaturge ? Where barb is 1 and Alchemist is 5 and a 3 would be bard/sorcerer/monk
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On a complexity scale of 1 to 5, how complex would you guys rate using the thaumaturge ? Where barb is 1 and Alchemist is 5 and a 3 would be bard/sorcerer/monk
High 3, potentially a 4. They're much like the Monk, in that you can drive up the complexity a lot, or keep it rather tame; but even at it's tamest, it's still pretty complicated compared to a fighter or barbarian.
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I love that with all their implements, the Thaumaturge is basically a "Murderhoarder".
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On a complexity scale of 1 to 5, how complex would you guys rate using the thaumaturge ? Where barb is 1 and Alchemist is 5 and a 3 would be bard/sorcerer/monk
Quibble: fighter should be 1, not barbarian. Rage introduces fiddly bits that fighters don't have to sweat.
With that in mind... I'd say a 3. Thaumaturge has a lot of moving pieces but I don't think they are more complicated than spell casting. But if you go all in on scrolls and such, yeah, you might hit 4.
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On a complexity scale of 1 to 5, how complex would you guys rate using the thaumaturge ? Where barb is 1 and Alchemist is 5 and a 3 would be bard/sorcerer/monk
Solid 4. You can be [literally] juggling 3 implements and counting as being in 2 places while tracking multiple area effects from those places while using a weapon.
I'd say 3-4 depending on feat and implement choices. Might conceivably get up to a 4.5 or a 5 if you lean into things like scroll shenanigans hard enough. I suppose that it's possible that the right build could get it down to the 2.5 range as long as it was low-level enough that you only had two implements to worry about, and you either had one of them as your weapon or were using a natural attack while constantly holding both. 2 feels out of reach.
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I have one complaint. One TINY complaint. One ITTY BITTY, TEEEEEEENSY WEENSY complaint. And one that I can easily, immediately, and obviously homebrew to fix, BUT I can see some people calling it a power increase.
The Wand...should do sonic damage as an option. Or there should just be a Key implement that can conceptually open anything, that would be functional as well. Or both (and I'd probably take both in this case).
Then I'd take...I dunno...Timeskipper as my free archetype.
And I'd figure out how to make my Thaumaturge Demense into a pocket dimension inside of a small box. It shouldn't be that hard to figure something out...
Things might get a bit...wibbly-wobbly, but come on, the Thaumaturge is just perfect for this idea!
That's... fantastic, Vali.
I'm sorry, I'm so sorry that the book didn't include those options. Maybe we're not ready.