Thaumaturge eratta that I think should be addressed

[VampByDay]

So with Paizo allowing youtubers to review some the Dark Archive before release date, a lot of people have been able to pause and read most of the text of the actual classes allowing us to get a pretty good idea of some of the classes. That being said, I think there are some inconsistencies in the thaumaturge that need to be addressed. This is just a list that I have compiled myself but here we go:

NOTE! I initially was going to hold off until the 27th, but seeing as some people are getting their books now, I have been convinced by other forum goers to get these issues out as soon as possible. If that is not okay Paizo, let me know and I will wait until the 27th to repost this.

Esoteric Lore: I assume that Esoteric Lore is a special lore skill that cannot be taken by other classes (like the Bardic Lore feat) and that when you roll esoteric lore you roll against the normal DC to identify the curse/haunt/creature and not the DC-2 (for a broadly applicable lore) or DC -5 (for a narrowly applicable lore) but the text doesn't actually say any of that.

Implement Empowerment: the wording of Implement Empowerment is:

“You don’t gain the benefit of implement empowerment if you are holding anything in either hand other than a single one-handed weapon, other implements, or esoterica, and you must be holding at least one implement to gain the benefit.”

This leaves some questions: Can you wield a one-handed weapon in both hands or just a total of a single, one handed weapon between two hands? If you have a weapon-implement, does that take up the single, one-handed weapon slot as well? What about combined weapons like a hand crossbow with a bayonet or reinforced stock, which are technically two weapons? I don't mean to be pedantic, but technically speaking, Mios as drawn cannot use implement empowerment, as they are clearly wielding a pair of gauntlets (which are one handed weapons and should come free with their breastplate.)

The Mirror implement arguably gets worse at the adept level as the new ability basicall says: "when you are attacked by an adjacent creature, 'you' gets shattered and your mirror duplicate goes away." This doesn't give you a choice not to do this, is this correct? If so it seems like a smart group of enemies could prevent you from using the mirror in a small area by simply readying to attack if you show up to keep you penned in.

The Adept of ability of the Tome is even worse. RULES AS WRITTEN: You cannot choose NOT to use it. It (basically) says at the start of each of your turns, you have to recall knowledge on a creature you see (no option not to use it, and it doesn't say that this is a free action) and gain a bonus to hit them. Doesn't even say in combat. So (again, RAW) as you are walking down the road with your Adept Tome out, you are constantly analyzing how to best stab your elf friend in the back because he happens to be in front of you in marching order? I am, like 90% certain that you are supposed to be able to choose NOT to use this ability and/or that it is supposed to be a free action, but nowhere in the text of tome is this actually written down.

[Guntermench]

Didn't you already make a thread for this? Whether a weapon is one handed or two handed cares about if you're holding it in one or two hands unless it specifically says, like Mauler, "requires X hands".

[VampByDay]

Guntermench wrote:

Didn't you already make a thread for this? Whether a weapon is one handed or two handed cares about if you're holding it in one or two hands unless it specifically says, like Mauler, "requires X hands".

That was answered in the thaumaturgy speculation thread, but if you read carefully, that's not what this question is about. THis is about if you are able to weild multiple one-handed weapons, and if your weapon-implement counts against your 'single one-handed weapon' limit. Also Mios cannot technically benefit from implement empowerment because gauntlets, so they are violating this rule, and I don't think that is intentional.

[shroudb]

“You don’t gain the benefit of implement empowerment if you are holding anything in either hand other than a single one-handed weapon, other implements, or esoterica, and you must be holding at least one implement to gain the benefit.”

We already know from Dev comments what counts as one handed weapon and what not.

So, you cannot as an example two hand a weapon and use it, so that's out.

Now, let's go to the number of items you can hold.

We can easily break up the sentence to:
you can wield:
a)ONE one-handed weapon
b)other implementS
c)other esoterica

You must always hold at least one implement.

So:
can you wield two weapon if one is an implement?
No.
Because even if something is an implement, it's still a weapon. So you will be wielding two weapons.

So, basically:

You can have your one handed, non-implement, weapon and another implement.
You can have your one handed weapon implement weapon and another implement.
You can have your one handed weapon implement and have 1 free hand.
You can have 2 implements.

Those are your valid options.

VampByDay wrote:

and if your weapon-implement counts against your 'single one-handed weapon' limit

why wouldn't it be? Isn't it still a weapon?

[Guntermench]

Yeah this seems very much a one one handed weapon class.

[VampByDay]

Hey guys, no need to jump on me here, I just thought the wording was a bit confusing because it could be interpreted in a few different ways, and there are a few things that the design team may not have considered when wording it (like the bayonette question, or the fact that technically, RAW, Mios can't use implement empowerment because of their gauntlets which they are clearly wearing). So, like, I just thought I'd throw that in there.

[Blake's Tiger]

You are not wielding free-hand weapons until the moment you are.

EDIT: So Mios’ gauntlet is not a problem.

Free Hand Trait wrote:

When you're not wielding anything and not otherwise using the hand, you can use abilities that require you to have a hand free as well as those that require you to be wielding a weapon in that hand.

Same thing applies to Unarmed Attacks, which every character has. If Unarmed trait didn’t refer to Free Hand trait, nobody could use legally use Implement Empowerment.

[Karmagator]

It would also be useful to not split up errata threads for a book. Paizo appreciate not having to delve too much and too widely for things like this.

I recommend keeping the discussion here - Paizo appreciate feedback, but the errata threads should be concise - and please also post your findings in the thread here, so we have one location for the entire book.