Appropriate Thrown Weapon for Ricochet Toss

[Phoebus Alexandros]

Have developers ever weighed in with limitations on what constitutes an "appropriate thrown weapon for the Ricochet Toss feat?

I'm specifically looking at a spear, as a means of providing an easy, short-range distance option for a Spear Fighter build.

[VoodistMonk]

An appropriate weapon is a ranged/thrown weapon you have Weapon Training with...

Appropriate means "suitable or proper in the circumstances", and the corcumstances of the feat are listed in its prerequisites.

[PossibleCabbage]

You *might* get a GM who objects to using Richochet Toss with, like, a Javelin because that's extremely silly. But "tolerance for silliness" is going to vary from person to person, so this is safely in "ask your GM if this is okay" territory.

[Phoebus Alexandros]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

You *might* get a GM who objects to using Richochet Toss with, like, a Javelin because that's extremely silly. But "tolerance for silliness" is going to vary from person to person, so this is safely in "ask your GM if this is okay" territory.

Believe me, I'm ambivalent on those grounds alone. If I pitched it to my GM, I'd do so with self-limiting caveats: e.g., limiting use of the feat to the spear's first range increment, with rope (or light metal chain) attached to yank it back.

Hmmm, I just described a harpoon ...

... which, actually, might not be a bad idea.

[Pizza Lord]

Phoebus Alexandros wrote:

Hmmm, I just described a harpoon ...

... which, actually, might not be a bad idea.

Harpoon just makes me said. Have to be proficient with it to do anything harpoon-like... which is fine... except it's an Exotic weapon... unless you don't know how to use it... then it just counts as a spear. Plus it's two-handed.

Harpoon rant:

------------------------------------------------
Then you have to actually critically hit (and it only has a threat range of 20) to be able to grapple anything. That's so silly when you think about it, you'd wonder why harpoons were ever even used or how they would work with a less than 5% chance to 'harpoon' (getting the threat and then still having to confirm it). Imagine that, the best, most skilled and well-trained whaler or harpooner in the world... has a 5% to actually harpoon something... ever (unless they have Improved Critical, which requires a +8 BAB, which means you assume every skilled harpooner is at least an 8th-level fighter or equivalent).

Looking at other grapple weapons, most of them have special rules, like a garrote. You can't even really attack someone with it, they already have to be unaware. Or a mancatcher, that has a touch attack. But for harpoon... they make it so utterly unreasonable to be able to harpoon something. Was hugely disappointed with it.
-----------------------------------------------------------

[Phoebus Alexandros]

Pizza Lord,

Yeah, agreed on all counts. In this case, It’s on my list for things that make zero sense, other than to maintain a semblance of game balance. I’m simply willing to tolerate it if only as a means to get acceptance for the feat in question.

[Wonderstell]

Pizza Lord wrote:

Harpoon rant

But wait, it gets worse!

Wilderness: Aquatic Terrain: Attacks from Land:
Characters swimming, floating, or treading water on the surface, or wading in water at least chest deep, have improved cover (+8 bonus to AC, +4 bonus on Reflex saves) from opponents on land. Land-bound opponents who have freedom of movement effects ignore this cover when making melee attacks against targets in the water. A completely submerged creature has total cover against opponents on land unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects. Magical effects are unaffected except for those that require attack rolls (which are treated like any other effects) and fire effects."

===
===

Phoebus Alexandros wrote:

Have developers ever weighed in with limitations on what constitutes an "appropriate thrown weapon for the Ricochet Toss feat?

I'm specifically looking at a spear, as a means of providing an easy, short-range distance option for a Spear Fighter build.

Well, they do explain that in the feat description don't they? The spear is not "bullets, thrown ammunition such as darts or shuriken, or thrown splash weapons", has a ranged increment, and is even part of the thrown weapon group, so it would return.

[Diego Rossi]

Pizza Lord wrote:

Harpoon rant

Maybe I am missing something, but the Harpoon description says:

Quote:

[PFS Legal] Harpoon

Source Ultimate Equipment pg. 20, Pirates of the Inner Sea pg. 19, Skull and Shackles Player's Guide pg. 6
Statistics
Cost 5 gp Weight 16 lbs.
Damage 1d6 (small), 1d8 (medium); Critical x3; Range 10 ft.; Type P; Special grapple, see text
Category Two-Handed; Proficiency Exotic
Weapon Groups Spears; Thrown
Description
A harpoon is a barbed spear with an attached rope 50 feet or less in length. Most harpoons have metal points, but some use ivory or are made entirely of wood. If you are proficient with the harpoon, it is a grappling weapon. A harpoon’s weight includes 10 pounds for the weight of 50 feet of hemp rope. The weight can be reduced by using shorter or lighter rope. If you are not proficient with a harpoon, treat it like a spear.

I don't see anything about requiring a critical hit to start a grapple.

I recall some other weapon description saying that the head is left lodged in the target you start a grapple and that requiring a critical hit, but the description of the harpoon in AoN doesn't say so.
What is the source you use to say that a critical hit is required?

Found it: It is under the Grapple quality in Ultimate Equipment, but AoN doesn't show it.

Based on that description you grapple the target only if it is within reach. Works if you are fishing all or smaller fish, not if you are whaling. But whales aren't grappled (the game mechanics), they are harpooned, which will require something very different from the grappling rules to describe it in the game.

[Pizza Lord]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Based on that description you grapple the target only if it is within reach. Works if you are fishing all or smaller fish, not if you are whaling. But whales aren't grappled (the game mechanics), they are harpooned, which will require something very different from the grappling rules to describe it in the game.

Exactly... and you don't use a harpoon to hunt small fish... or even normal fish. You would use a spear... spear fishing. Even fish you need a speargun for is still spear fishing. We use harpoons on things we want to keep from running away or escaping because they aren't skewered on a spear and basically dead. Big things, like whales.

And yes, harpooning should be different from grappling... but they just shoehorned it in with their newly created grapple category. There's a difference between something that just snags or holds or entangles (the term, not the condition) a target and grapples them, and something that literally skewers or impales and spikes a target.

Harpoon Rant II:

-----------------------------------------
There's not even damage for ripping the harpoon out. Maybe a little bleed damage while it's in there or ripped out?... it's just a simple 'escape from grapple' check. Really, can you picture any whales in the world not succeeding against any man holding a harpoon?

There are examples of attacks or creature defenses that impale other creatures, it just seems like they didn't bother. And sure, it's just one niche weapon... but if you're going to make it an exotic weapon and make it require special training to use... then take the time to make it special and do something. As it is, it's just a spear that costs twice as much, has half the range, and requires spending a feat to be able to grapple less than 5% of the time. No matter how skilled you are in its use... 95%+ percent of the time... it's worse than a spear. And the rest of the time... you still need to succeed at a grapple check (and a whale has about a 30+ CMD). Then... if you do... the target can just break free like any other grapple! Just like a guy slipping an armbar or a headlock instead of pulling a barbed skewer out of their flesh.

In 10 minutes, they could have come up with a system that called for a Profession (sailor) check... or made it a CMB check against the target's natural armor or 1/2 natural armor (I haven't crunched the numbers on every whale or creature in the Bestiary obviously), maybe adding in the target's Dex. I don't know... but it could have been done.
-----------------------------------------

Just a disappointing lost opportunity.