I've got a champion in my game who reflavored the liberator code onto paladin mechanics to worship the Cosmic Caravan. (I'm not crazy about such reflavoring but didn't argue it.) And we recently feel into the ol' falling paladin controversy.
So there's a pretty pitiful devil who has been contracted to act as a janitor, forced to stay in a couple of rooms for centuries and spend 3 hours a day licking them clean with his tongue. The party smelled the devil coming and ambushed it. They got the first shot off and really trounced the thing. It surrendered to them, pleading for its life in exchange for information. It also pointed out that it was just a janitor and basically a victim. The party seemed reluctant to hear it out but ultimately decided to. After it shared the information, the champion immediately tried to decapitate it.
I decided this triggered a fall. For all it was a devil, it didn't pose a threat to anyone except for folks who might theoretically delve hella deep into the dungeon. It read as murder to me. There is a case to be made against it, of course, so I also considered the individual causes.
If it had been a true paladin, then it would been a fall under lying. If it had been a Redeemer, it would have been a fall for lack of mercy. Both feel clear cut without even touching the good part of the code. For a liberator, it is gets trickier. Killing what is essentially a slave and a prisoner feels against the spirit of freedom, but I'm not sure it technically breaks the code. Does forcing someone to talk under threat of execution and then executing them anyway count as coercion under the code?
The player took it pretty well, and I plan to allow a lower level version of Atone to be used. But I find myself second guessing the decision. What would y'all have done?
Was there any discussion about how to release the Devil from its servitude by sending it back to the outer planes that it calls home?
I think that is what killing it would do, but I am not certain on the lore of that. But that doesn't seem to be the intent of the player.
I don't think that pausing an attack in order to listen to what the Devil wants to say would qualify as coercion. And deciding to continue the attack after listening to what it says - rather than accepting its surrender - doesn't really sound like lying.
So that's what I would have liked to have seen. Some sort of RP justification for why the Champion decided to continue the attack.
"Well, allow me to free you from your servitude and send you back to your home plane then."
Was there any discussion about how to release the Devil from its servitude by sending it back to the outer planes that it calls home?
I think that is what killing it would do, but I am not certain on the lore of that. But that doesn't seem to be the intent of the player.
I don't think that pausing an attack in order to listen to what the Devil wants to say would qualify as coercion. And deciding to continue the attack after listening to what it says - rather than accepting its surrender - doesn't really sound like lying.
So that's what I would have liked to have seen. Some sort of RP justification for why the Champion decided to continue the attack.
"Well, allow me to free you from your servitude and send you back to your home plane then."
I don't THINK that is how it works in Pathfinder. Certainly, if that was how it worked I don't know why the devil would bother begging for its life. Pretty sure they just get their essence redistributed into the cosmos at some place or another.
Was there any discussion about how to release the Devil from its servitude by sending it back to the outer planes that it calls home?
I think that is what killing it would do, but I am not certain on the lore of that. But that doesn't seem to be the intent of the player.
I don't think that pausing an attack in order to listen to what the Devil wants to say would qualify as coercion. And deciding to continue the attack after listening to what it says - rather than accepting its surrender - doesn't really sound like lying.
So that's what I would have liked to have seen. Some sort of RP justification for why the Champion decided to continue the attack.
"Well, allow me to free you from your servitude and send you back to your home plane then."
Unless the outsider is bound to the material plane via ritual magic, killing them sends them back to their home plane, since in that case they are just manifested essences, similar to summoned creatures.
It's possible this lesser Demon isn't aware of this facet and would plead for its life, especially if it is a newly made Demon. If it is aware, though, then it pleading makes no sense unless it was pleading for apparent death. That being said, I don't see why the Demon could not have just found a way to commit suicide; it's likely the contract denies them from willingly trying to loophole or opt out (at least without major repercussions), but in this case the pleading would still make no sense, and perhaps the Demon would have egged them on instead.
As for this being an act of falling, I probably would not make this the only act required, especially if they are affected by a Fiendsbane Oath feat, for example, simply because Demons are inherently evil and untrustworthy. It's not like they couldn't lie to you or attempt to manipulate you for their own ends, and it's not like it cannot be a threat to an innocent later down the line, which all Champions of Good need to consider before deciding they have to allow for personal freedoms.
It would be an awesome character moment for the Demon to return later as a means of taunting the Champion for releasing it from its service in such crude fashion, to see if the Champion will either learn from his previous mistake, or act upon personal impulses instead.
Unless the outsider is bound to the material plane via ritual magic, killing them sends them back to their home plane, since in that case they are just manifested essences, similar to summoned creatures.Was there any discussion about how to release the Devil from its servitude by sending it back to the outer planes that it calls home?
I think that is what killing it would do, but I am not certain on the lore of that. But that doesn't seem to be the intent of the player.
I don't think that pausing an attack in order to listen to what the Devil wants to say would qualify as coercion. And deciding to continue the attack after listening to what it says - rather than accepting its surrender - doesn't really sound like lying.
So that's what I would have liked to have seen. Some sort of RP justification for why the Champion decided to continue the attack.
"Well, allow me to free you from your servitude and send you back to your home plane then."
No, I'm pretty sure that is a D&D thing, not a Pathfinder thing. Some quick googling definitely supports this.
As for this being an act of falling, I probably would not make this the only act required, especially if they are affected by a Fiendsbane Oath feat,
They were not. They had the Shining Oath. Also, a one time violation seems enough to make a champion fall but not necessarily a cleric based on how their respective Anathema sections are written.
It would be an awesome character moment for the Demon to return later as a means of taunting the Champion for releasing it from its service in such crude fashion, to see if the Champion will either learn from his previous mistake, or act upon personal impulses instead.
Sure, if that was how it works in Pathfinder, but again, it isn't.
|
Was there any discussion about how to release the Devil from its servitude by sending it back to the outer planes that it calls home?
I think that is what killing it would do, but I am not certain on the lore of that. But that doesn't seem to be the intent of the player.
I don't think that pausing an attack in order to listen to what the Devil wants to say would qualify as coercion. And deciding to continue the attack after listening to what it says - rather than accepting its surrender - doesn't really sound like lying.
So that's what I would have liked to have seen. Some sort of RP justification for why the Champion decided to continue the attack.
"Well, allow me to free you from your servitude and send you back to your home plane then."
Unless the outsider is bound to the material plane via ritual magic, killing them sends them back to their home plane, since in that case they are just manifested essences, similar to summoned creatures.
It's possible this lesser Demon isn't aware of this facet and would plead for its life, especially if it is a newly made Demon. If it is aware, though, then it pleading makes no sense unless it was pleading for apparent death. That being said, I don't see why the Demon could not have just found a way to commit suicide; it's likely the contract denies them from willingly trying to loophole or opt out (at least without major repercussions), but in this case the pleading would still make no sense, and perhaps the Demon would have egged them on instead.
As for this being an act of falling, I probably would not make this the only act required, especially if they are affected by a Fiendsbane Oath feat, for example, simply because Demons are inherently evil and untrustworthy. It's not like they couldn't lie to you or attempt to manipulate you for their own ends, and it's not like it cannot be a threat to an innocent later down the line, which all Champions of Good need to consider before deciding...
A Devil, not a Demon. Lawful Evil.
Yeah, the reforming thing is a common misconception, and I even pointed out it was a misconception at the table before they killed it. There's tons of threads clarifying the point on this site and reddit.
The official basis can be found here: .
Calling: A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possibleCreatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below).
Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.
The bolded bit also means that Planar Calling magic doesn't actually bind demons to the material plane unless the spell specifically says so. It is essentially just teleporting them there.
I think there books that talk about this more, but they are the sort of lore heavy things you don't find on free sources like Archives of Nethys.
Also indeed I can add my understanding that fiends and celestial do not typically reform in the Great Beyond. Their quintessence flows back to their home plane if it can, to become part of the terrain same as a physical creature returns urs components to the earth, or more likely failing that it us washed away in the Maelstrom to be recycled.
No devil respawning in Lost Omens
As a GM, I never force anything roleplay wise on a character. If I find that the character's acts seem in opposition with their philosophy, I speak with the player, but ultimately its the player's choice to have their Champion falling.
OK. Good to know on the clarification of the extraplanar creatures. So summoned creatures don't really exist before the spell that creates them or after the spell ends. All other creatures are real creatures that are actually there and die when they are killed.
It is still a bit of a gray area, so I don't think having the Liberator Champion need to atone is a bad call.
* Devils are generally evil.
* Devils exemplify bondage through contracts and legal means.
* This Devil is itself currently in bondage.
* The Devil had surrendered.
So at the very least, the player should pause for thought and check with the GM how they feel on the matter. And probably check in character if there is any possible solution that would be more in line with the Champion's code. Ultimately the decision may be that the Champion finds no other solution than to kill the evil beast before it manages to escape its own bonds and enslave someone else. But that is something that should have a bit of thought put into it.
Did you tell the player that their actions would trigger a fall before resolving the outcome? That's honestly my only personal check in a situation like this. If the player declared their intent and you gave them a warning and they decided to go through with it without objection or argument then there's nothing wrong at all with how you played this. If you let the player make the choice thinking it was consistent with their codes and then you make them fall after the fact then I think there's a problem.
It was the latter, hence why I'm torn up about it. They are also level 3 so the 60 gp for Atonement isn't cheap, especially as the player doesn't want to pull from party funds. (We have ABP so that wouldn't be a HUGE setback, though.)
I can see how you might consider this murder, but Demons/Devils other fiends are basically made of evil. They aren't really ambiguous. You know what's in their heart because they're made of it. The fact that its assigned task happened to be benign is sort of besides the point. It could just as easily have been called to do something far worse and can /
I just don't think alignment alone warrants execution. Otherwise Good characters could just use the ol' Divine Lance Alignment test willy-nilly. You also wouldn't bother with prisons for Evil people, you'd just execute them. Which is essentially what this thing was: a prisoner.
probably will do worse at some point in the future if unbound from it's current situation. That's not even a hypothetical so much as an eventuality.
It has been stuck there for 500 years, and the party knew it was a particular dumb, low level species of devil. It seems rather unlikely to come unbound in another 500 years, and if it did it isn't like they would be unleashing a pit fiend out into the countryside. Murdering a sentient being that doesn't pose a danger to anyone still feels like murder to me, even if it is an evil creature.
Edit: Side note, are there any low level equivalents to the the Phylactery of Faithfulness as far as keeping players from violating their Anathema? Feels like maybe there should be.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Couple of points of clarification: found out the player was actually using the Paladin code, which IMO is definitely in fall territory under the third tenant: You must act with honor, never taking advantage of others, lying, or cheating. Letting someone barter for their life in bad faith is certainly not honorable. And because the devil wasn't going to cause IMMEDIATE harm, it isn't superseded by the second tenant.
The player and I disagree about this, but he's also refused my offer to undo the fall or provide a Phylactery of Faithfulness in the future. He wants to role-play it out, even if it means walking into a whole floor full of undead without Lay on Hands or his Blade Ally. So I suppose the question is a bit moot.
Unless the outsider is bound to the material plane via ritual magic, killing them sends them back to their home plane, since in that case they are just manifested essences, similar to summoned creatures.Was there any discussion about how to release the Devil from its servitude by sending it back to the outer planes that it calls home?
I think that is what killing it would do, but I am not certain on the lore of that. But that doesn't seem to be the intent of the player.
I don't think that pausing an attack in order to listen to what the Devil wants to say would qualify as coercion. And deciding to continue the attack after listening to what it says - rather than accepting its surrender - doesn't really sound like lying.
So that's what I would have liked to have seen. Some sort of RP justification for why the Champion decided to continue the attack.
"Well, allow me to free you from your servitude and send you back to your home plane then."
No, I'm pretty sure that is a D&D thing, not a Pathfinder thing. Some quick googling definitely supports this.
As for this being an act of falling, I probably would not make this the only act required, especially if they are affected by a Fiendsbane Oath feat,They were not. They had the Shining Oath. Also, a one time violation seems enough to make a champion fall but not necessarily a cleric based on how their respective Anathema sections are written.
It would be an awesome character moment for the Demon to return later as a means of taunting the Champion for releasing it from its service in such crude fashion, to see if the Champion will either learn from his previous mistake, or act upon personal impulses instead.Sure, if that was how it works in Pathfinder, but again, it isn't.
Based on the previous quotes, though, the Devil has to be affected by a Calling spell for them to truly die on the Material Plane. I do appreciate the clarification that the Calling spell does limit their capacity to escape, and that was the distinction I was attempting to make; I just used grognard terms, which I guess wasn't apt in this case. Whoops.
The question then becomes if the creature was Called or Summoned. Summoning is usually temporary, so it seems doubtful that is the case unless the contract states otherwise. And really, since it's an adventure path tool, that's ultimately GM FIAT.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Based on the previous quotes, though, the Devil has to be affected by a Calling spell for them to truly die on the Material Plane.
No, it doesn't. It just means Called devils CAN die on the material plane where Summoned Devils can't. Nothing implies that a devil who came to the material plane of their own free will would respawn.
I do appreciate the clarification that the Calling spell does limit their capacity to escape,
Calling spells DON'T limit the capacity to escape unless they say they do. Otherwise the creature can plane shift back whenever the want. Now, the spell on this devil clearly prevented the return, but there's nothing about "being bound to the material plane" that factors into the permanency of death.
The question then becomes if the creature was Called or Summoned. Summoning is usually temporary, so it seems doubtful that is the case unless the contract states otherwise. And really, since it's an adventure path tool, that's ultimately GM FIAT.
Given we have no Summoning spells that last 500 years, and this wasn't a minion or facsimile, there would be an awful lot of fiat to assume this thing is a summon.
It also could just be a creature that decided to visit the material plane and came up an Infernal Contract while there. It still dies just the same.
Based on the previous quotes, though, the Devil has to be affected by a Calling spell for them to truly die on the Material Plane.No, it doesn't. It just means Called devils CAN die on the material plane where Summoned Devils can't. Nothing implies that a devil who came to the material plane of their own free will would respawn.
I do appreciate the clarification that the Calling spell does limit their capacity to escape,Calling spells DON'T limit the capacity to escape unless they say they do. Otherwise the creature can plane shift back whenever the want. Now, the spell on this devil clearly prevented the return, but there's nothing about "being bound to the material plane" that factors into the permanency of death.
The question then becomes if the creature was Called or Summoned. Summoning is usually temporary, so it seems doubtful that is the case unless the contract states otherwise. And really, since it's an adventure path tool, that's ultimately GM FIAT.Given we have no Summoning spells that last 500 years, and this wasn't a minion or facsimile, there would be an awful lot of fiat to assume this thing is a summon.
It also could just be a creature that decided to visit the material plane and came up an Infernal Contract while there. It still dies just the same.
Interesting, it appears we've been running that part incorrectly then. Looks like Outsiders just became a lot less menacing than before. Quite unfortunate, that.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It was a thing in D&D that a lot of people assumed was still a thing in Golarion.
That and the whole "summons aren't real" really takes away from some of the interesting dynamics associated with interacting with outsiders, but it is what it is.