Empty Quiver Style and Stabbing Shot Rules Question

[Tsukato]

So, the rules for Empty Quiver Style state

"If you have the Stabbing Shot feat, you can use it with a crossbow or firearm, substituting a loaded bolt or firearm ammunition for an arrow."

First question, mostly for RP/Flavor's sake: when it comes to using a firearm for this attack... you just... push the bullet into the enemy with your hand? this sounds messy with an early firearm's ammunition consisting of a bullet and loose powder...

Second question: is the bolt or firearm ammunition expended after this attack? because in the case of the crossbow or firearm and the bolt or ammo in question needing to be loaded after your first attack your weapon is no longer loaded... in the case of the crossbow if the bolt sticks out past the end (which I'm pretty sure it doesn't) I could see it being stabbed into someone like a bayonet, but a firearm's ammo definitely doesn't stick out like that...

third question: or is it basically having you fire the loaded bolt or firearm ammunition for this?

[TxSam88]

did you watch the LOTR movies? remember the scene where Legolas draws an arrow from his quiver, then stabs a guy with that arrow, then uses the arrow to shoot another guy. that's what you are doing with stabbing shot. So yeah, you hit the guy with a bullet or arrow/bolt as a melee attack as you are drawing it out for a reload, then immediately load that bullet/bolt/arrow so you can shoot it.

[Chell Raighn]

For the arrow and bolt, it makes perfect sense to stab them, and then load and shoot that arrow/bolt… but the bullet is where things get complicated… additionally I think the “loaded bolt” in the feat was an error and should have said “unloaded bolt”…

Anyways… regarding the firearm bullet, you could reason it as either punching someone in the gut with a bullet in hand or even throwing gunpowder in someone’s face to get them to reel back, giving you space to load and fire safely, but it certainly isn’t stabbing… regardless of how you rationalize it, it still functions mechanically the same, make a melee attack, deal damage, push them back 5ft, proceed to load and fire.

Personally I might rationalize the firearm bullet part as a quick pistol whip or stock strike as hitting them with the butt of your firearm seems a bit more practical and more likely to cause the target to stumble backwards.

[Claxon]

I agree with chell, the imagery of Empty Quiver style with firearm ammo makes no sense but mechanically there isn't a problem. Just imagine it as a pistol whip instead.

[Tsukato]

Chell Raighn wrote:

For the arrow and bolt, it makes perfect sense to stab them, and then load and shoot that arrow/bolt… but the bullet is where things get complicated… additionally I think the “loaded bolt” in the feat was an error and should have said “unloaded bolt”…

Anyways… regarding the firearm bullet, you could reason it as either punching someone in the gut with a bullet in hand or even throwing gunpowder in someone’s face to get them to reel back, giving you space to load and fire safely, but it certainly isn’t stabbing… regardless of how you rationalize it, it still functions mechanically the same, make a melee attack, deal damage, push them back 5ft, proceed to load and fire.

Personally I might rationalize the firearm bullet part as a quick pistol whip or stock strike as hitting them with the butt of your firearm seems a bit more practical and more likely to cause the target to stumble backwards.

Yeah that makes a lot more sense... I'll have to ask my DM how he would rule it before I decide if I will use it in my build or not. Guess its really gonna be up to him on how it rolls.