I had this crazy idea for a Cavalier build (Very feat intensive), with a lot of moving parts that I wanted just to discuss.
Yesterday with the thanks to Belafon and MrCharisma we did some Spirited Charge mathematics
And that got me thinking and thinking and thinking some more until I thought of this combination:
Let me explain. The Horselord gets this
At 6th level, a horselord gains the benefits of the Mobility feat so long as he is mounted. Additionally, he deals double damage while using a one-handed slashing weapon from the back of a charging mount, as though using a lance.
Allowing you to use a one-handed weapon with the same benefits a Lance gets, but it gets more than that because you can two-hand the weapon = PROFIT
Secondly we use Barracuda Dash to charge twice in the same turn = PROFIT
Finally we are using the Temple Sword because it belongs to the Monk weapon group and we can use Ascetic Style to apply the Barracuda Slam bonus to strength on the first charge.
*Weirdly this build would result in a Cavalier that is more to do with Wisdom than Charisma
I put this together just for visual sake:
OUTLINE
Race: Human (Military Tradition: Falcata & Temple Sword)
Class: Horselord Cavalier
Order: Order of the Sword
Stats – 25 Points
Str: 16+2:18
Dex: 14
Cons: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 13
Cha: 12
ATTRIBUTE INCREASES
4, 8,12,16,20 - STR
TRAITS
____________ (Campaign: X)
Indomitable Faith (FAITH)
FEATS
1 – Cavalier – Level – Mounted Combat
3 – Cavalier – Level – Power Attack
5 – Cavalier – Level – Ride By Attack
6 - Cavalier - Archetype - Sand Storm
7 - Cavalier – Level – Weapon Focus
8 - Cavalier - Order - Spirited Charge
9 - Cavalier – Level – Wheeling Charge
11 - Cavalier – Level – Improved Unarmed Strike
12 - Cavalier – Level – Barracuda Style
13 - Cavalier – Level – Ascetic Style
15 - Cavalier – Level – Barracuda Slam
17 - Cavalier – Level – Barracuda Dash
18 - Cavalier – Level – Escape Route
19 - Cavalier – Level – TBD
VERY VERY VERY Feat intensive
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grab the indomitable mount feat .
Just take the level dip in monk (master of many styles). it frees up IUS and barracuda style
or
1 level of war priest (divine commander), worshiping Irori, could net you Improved unarmed strike, weapon focus (ANY weapon), access to wands/scrolls and a mount (stacks with cavalier), a second level would get you fervor (potential free casting a spell)
the training ability on a weapon could free up a feat
Just take the level dip in monk (master of many styles). it frees up IUS and barracuda style
Yes I was thinking this may required. It was hastily put together to sort of show what I was getting at. That L20 capstone for 4x damage on the charge though is tasty
the training ability on a weapon could free up a feat
Good idea. My initial thought would be for either Wheeling Charge or Ascetic Style
As long as you’re playing a Human, you should also get a bonus feat at 1st level, right?
Do Spirited Charge and Sand Storm stack (for triple damage on a charge)? If they don’t, Sand Storm makes Spirited Charge redundant.
More importantly, you’re investing five feats for a concept that doesn’t fully come online until 17th level. Unless you’re doing a sea-going or underwater campaign, you’re not going to see a meaningful return until 15th level. Even then, you’re talking about an extra 9 or so points of damage (assuming a +6 belt). It’s nothing to sneeze at, but unless it also gets multiplied on a charge (instead of just being added on), I’m not sure it’s worth the four feats you needed to devote to that point.
Have you considered going the Mounted Skirmisher feat? Besides Mounted Combat (which you need regardless), it has a single feat prerequisite (Trick Riding, whose functionality is limited, but at least usable without having to invest in another three feats). Its benefit—a full attack if your mount moves its speed or less—can’t be overstated, in my humble opinion, especially if you ride light and invest in Horseshoes of Speed.
Going that route, you’d have a charging option at 6th level (Sand Storm), a hit-and-run option at 9th level (As One), and a pounce option at 15th level.
So I would go with:
1 - Mounted Combat (Human), Ride-By Attack (1st level). Charge and then move again without provoking an AOO.
3 - Spirited Charge. Double damage on a charge is worth more than a +3 damage bonus.
5 - Wheeling Charge
6 - Power Attack
7 - Chain Challenge. If you’re not using Weapon Focus to qualify for another feat, the +1 bonus is secondary to saving your Challenges. Besides, with Order of the Sword, you won’t be hurting for attack bonuses (especially when charging)
8 - Get Skill Focus with your Order’s feat. Trampling probably isn’t your thing, Unseat requires a lance, and the other three you shouldn’t be waiting to get.
9 - Improved Critical
11 - Weapon Focus
12 - Anatomical Savant
13 - Trick Riding
15 - Mounted Skirmisher
17 - Celestial or Deific Obedience. There are a ton of benefits that come with this feat, and by this level you qualify for two out of three of them.
18 - …
19 - …
Those last two feats get tricky, due to power level issues. I’d recommend Critical Focus, to maximize on potential critical hits with your iterative attacks and either Dazing or Stunning Assault.
As long as you’re playing a Human, you should also get a bonus feat at 1st level, right?
Yes. I just traded it out for Military Tradition to get two weapon proficiencies. I of course would not need Temple Sword Proficiency as a feat if I dipped into Monk
Sorry, I missed that at the top!
Do Spirited Charge and Sand Storm stack (for triple damage on a charge)? If they don’t, Sand Storm makes Spirited Charge redundant.
Yeah it will do
Additionally, he deals double damage while using a one-handed slashing weapon from the back of a charging mount, as though using a lance.
As it says it works the same as a Lance
More importantly, you’re investing five feats for a concept that doesn’t fully come online until 17th level. Unless you’re doing a sea-going or underwater campaign, you’re not going to see a meaningful return until 15th level. Even then, you’re talking about an extra 9 or so points of damage (assuming a +6 belt). It’s nothing to sneeze at, but unless it also gets multiplied on a charge (instead of just being added on), I’m not sure it’s worth the four feats you needed to devote to that point.
Why wouldn't it be multiplied with Spirited Charge?
_______________________________________________________
I am actually liking the Master of Many Styles Dip more and more.
It gives me:
- Temple Sword Proficiency
- Improved Unarmed Strike
- Ascetic Style
- and no need for Weapon Focus
That saves 4 feats. With it I can get to Barracuda Dash by level 9
OUTLINE
Race: Human
Class: Gallant Horselord Cavalier
Order: Order of the Sword
Stats – 25 Points
Str: 16+2:18
Dex: 14
Cons: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 13
Cha: 12
ATTRIBUTE INCREASES
4, 8,12,16,20 - STR
TRAITS
____________ (Campaign: X)
Indomitable Faith (FAITH)
FEATS
1 - Monk - Level - Mounted Combat
1 - Monk - Human - Ride By Attack
1 – Monk – Bonus – Improved Unarmed Combat, Ascetic Style
3 – Cavalier – Level – Power Attack
5 – Cavalier – Level – Barracuda Style
7 - Cavalier - Archetype - Sand Storm
7 - Cavalier – Level – Barracuda Slam
8 - Cavalier - Order - Spirited Charge
9 - Cavalier – Level – Barracuda Dash
11 - Cavalier – Level – Improved Critical
13 - Cavalier – Level – Escape Route
13 - Cavalier – Level – Chain Challenge
15 - Cavalier – Level –
17 - Cavalier – Level –
19 - Cavalier – Level –
19 - Cavalier – Level –
That looks much better than initially.
Since the focus is on charging, perhaps your remaining slots can go toward feats that ready a charge action, like Rhino Charge or Vigilant Charger? They both have a prerequisite feat (Improved Bull Rush and Combat Reflexes, respectively), so that might help determine which gimmick you would like for your last six levels?
If you go with Rhino Charge, for example, see if your GM is kind enough to let you get Minotaur’s Charge. If he does, finish it off with Greater Bull Rush: you’ll get a free bull rush with each of your Barracuda charges and enemies will provoke an attack of opportunity. If he doesn’t, perhaps a consolation prize would be Bull Rush Strike—though critical hits won’t be as frequent with a 17-20 range.
In either case, being able to effectively ready two charges would seem worthwhile.
I of course completely overlooked the need for Combat Style Master and Indomitable Mount. Both seem very late to take them
FEATS
1 - Monk - Level - Mounted Combat
1 - Monk - Human - Ride By Attack
1 – Monk – Bonus – Improved Unarmed Combat, Ascetic Style
3 – Cavalier – Level – Power Attack
5 – Cavalier – Level – Barracuda Style
7 - Cavalier - Archetype - Sand Storm
7 - Cavalier – Level – Barracuda Slam
8 - Cavalier - Order - Spirited Charge
9 - Cavalier – Level – Barracuda Dash
11 - Cavalier – Level – Improved Critical
13 - Cavalier – Level – Combat Style Master
13 - Cavalier – Bonus – Chain Challenge
15 - Cavalier – Level – Indomitable Mount
17 - Cavalier – Level –
19 - Cavalier – Level –
19 - Cavalier – Bonus –
________________________________________________________________
What feats for the mount do you think I should be going for?
Updated
I have decided to take a bigger dip into Monk (Sporadically taken), as it gives me more "Stuff" most importantly of which is better saves.
CAVALIER (Gallant + Horselord) + MONK (Master of Many Styles & Qinggong)
1 - Monk - Level - Mounted Combat
1 - Monk - Human - Ride By Attack
1 – Monk – Bonus – Improved Unarmed Combat, Ascetic Style
3 – Cavalier – Level – Power Attack
5 – Cavalier – Level – Barracuda Style
7 - Cavalier - Archetype - Sand Storm
7 - Cavalier – Level – Barracuda Slam
8 - Monk - Bonus - Barracuda Dash
9 - Cavalier – Level – Combat Style Master
10 - Cavalier - Order - Spirited Charge
11 - Cavalier – Level – Improved Critical
13 - Monk – Level – Boon Companion
14 - Monk – Ki Power – Ki Stand or Deny Death
15 - Cavalier – Level – Indomitable Mount
16 - Cavalier - Bonus -
17 - Cavalier – Level –
19 - Cavalier – Level –
MOUNT
1 - Medium Armour Proficiency
2 - Dodge
5 - Mobility
8 - Toughness
10 - Nimble Moves
13 - Acrobatic Steps
16 - Iron Will
I’m assuming your cavalier will be armored, which means you won’t get the benefit of Flurry of Blows.
If that’s the case, then I would definitely take Spirited Charge before Power Attack. Power Attack will give you a +2 damage bonus to a single attack in exchange for a -1 penalty to hit. While you’re getting a single attack, and given that charging (and riding off afterwards) is your whole thing, the double damage from Spirited Charge (average roll of 3 +4 from Strength) is a better benefit. That’s still true for several levels after, given that Sand Storm triples your damage on a charge.
I’d also take Combat Style Master before the Barracuda chain. Without it, you’re doing either Ascetic Style or Barracuda Style unarmed.
Beyond that, I would say you need to decide how likely it is that you’ll be charging a second opponent between levels 9-11. If the answer is yes, prioritize the Barracuda Style chain of feats over Power Attack. If the answer is no, then take Power Attack first—as it will only make your Spirited Charge that much stronger.
So my humble recommendation is:
1 - Monk - Level - Mounted Combat
1 - Monk - Human - Ride By Attack
1 – Monk – Bonus – Improved Unarmed Combat, Ascetic Style
3 – Cavalier – Level – Spirited Charge
5 – Cavalier – Level – Combat Style Master
7 - Cavalier - Archetype - Sand Storm
7 - Cavalier – Level – Barracuda Style
8 - Monk - Bonus - Barracuda Slam
9 - Cavalier – Level - Barracuda Dash
10 - Cavalier - Order - Power Attack
11 - Cavalier – Level – Improved Critical
13 - Monk – Level – Boon Companion
14 - Monk – Ki Power – Ki Stand or Deny Death
15 - Cavalier – Level – Indomitable Mount
Great catch—thanks! I guess the point I was trying to make, however, was that, without the extra attack that flurry of blows grants, the value of Power Attack is lower relative to Spirited Charge. By setting me straight, though, you also helped me see the action economy benefit of Combat Style Master!
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One thing I noticed, Barracuda style isn't going to help much unless you have a way to grant it to your mount that I missed.
While you have the feat, sure you can make a second charge, but it wont be a mounted charge. And you'd also have to throw dismount in there, which I probably would say prevents you from actually making the charge (as a GM).
I know there are some options that grant feats you have to your mount, but I don't see them in the above builds and without it your not going to mounted charge twice in a turn.
To be honest, I think you probably have to drop barracuda style unless you find a way to grant that feat to your mount.
The method I was thinking of doesn't even work, I was thinking about the Hunter class, but they only grant teamwork feats to their mount.
While that does kill the initial concept, it really only means that you don't get to charge twice in one turn. I realized that's a huge change in what you had in mind, but double mounted charges in a single turn is something that a GM would get very fed up with very quickly. You could expect either difficult terrain, small spaces, flying enemies, or outright killing your mount to come up often.
Mounted charges do a ton of damage when it's one a round. Two a round would have been nuts, but without both you and your mount having the feat it wouldn't work. Even if you both have it, it's bit unclear about whether it should work but as a GM if you managed to get the feat on your mount I would allow it.
It’s doable. If both Power Attack and Spirited Charge are taken before the Barracuda feats, Dash arrives at 9th level. The Cavalier’s mount would be able to pick up Barracuda Dash on the same level—as long as it had an Intelligence of 3 or higher.
Taking Wheeling Charge the level after Barracuda Dash and investing in ridiculously cheap Horseshoes of the Zephyr for the mount should make most broken ground and obstacles avoidable.
Different GMs have different perspectives on how they run games, though, and I could see how someone designing a character that requires third parties for magic solutions could be off-putting.
Horse animal companions don't have 13 wisdom that the barracudda style feats requires.
So you will need to increase int to 3 and then increase wisdom to 13 to be able to start taking the required feats, starting with improved unarmed strike.
Barracuda Dash requires 7 ranks in acrobatics and 7 ranks in swim. Assuming a GM is okay with letting a horse take ranks in acrobatics (sort of a grey area about what feats animals can take) the absolute minimum character level you can have 14 ranks on an animal companion is 17th level. Based on the animal companion chart that's where you will get the required number of skill points.
And you wont have the required int or wisdom before level 9 to start taking the barracuda style feats, because both are going to require an ability score increase to qualify. Or purchasing magic items.
If you can increase the int of your horse above 10, it will increase the amount of skill points they get, you might be able to then pull this off before level 17.
It's not impossible to find some ways to improve on when your mount could successfully obtain Barracuda Dash, but it's going to be a challenge to reach it.
And if you do find a nifty method many campaigns do not make it past 13th level or so, so the plan may still kick in at a point in which you barely get to benefit from it.
I did some further research and acrobatics as a skill (accidentally said feat before) should be permitted to be taken by animal companions. Although you're still going to have trouble getting the required skill ranks before level 17.
And prior to that barracuda style basically does nothing for you or your mount without barracuda dash.
One thing I noticed, Barracuda style isn't going to help much unless you have a way to grant it to your mount that I missed.
I am just going to quote a few things I have got from the Rules section of the forum, including one from my DM. Ultimately through following three seperate topics, mounted combat is written so badly that it really is a table by table case
Ride-by Attack isn't a mounted charge as per the FAQ linked. The mount never charges (it just double-moves) so RAW you don't fulfill the requirements of a mounted charge and would neither get the benefit of a Lance or Spirited Charge when you use Ride-By Attack.
Now I really don't think it was intended to have Ride-By Attack be completely incompatible with Spirited Charge which is the next feat in the feat path. That's just an unforeseen consequence of the mess that is mounted combat (and the resulting mess that happened when Paizo wanted to prevent any pounce-lancing from ever happening again).
So even though Ride-By Attack isn't a Mounted Charge, it is clearly meant to be a Mounted Charge. If you then used Ride-By Attack and Wheeling Charge, you could potentially manage to charge two foes while mounted.
First you charge Enemy A as per Ride-By Attack, then you use Wheeling Charge (if needed) to redirect your mount towards Enemy B and use the rest of the Ride-By movement to reach them.
and
the barracuda argument doesn't hold: you can get the second charge off while mounted even without the mount needing to move again, by either riding through the first enemy to be able to hit a second enemy in a straight line
While some people think this build would be cheesy. I like it because it can still do a lot of stuff whilst dismounted and that is what I set out to do when coming up with it
While I agree with your first point Minigiant, that you quoted from Winderstell I don't agree to your second, the quote from AwesomenessDog.
The reason being that Barracuda style clearly grants a second charge.
So, in order to get the first attack you must complete the charge. Whem making a mounted charge, you and your mount move and charge together. The rules are honestly really awkward around this and really poorly written so exactly how this works/is supposed to work is questionable.
But I don't think it's crazy to assert that if your mount finishes charging you also finish charging. And that if you make your attack, that represents the end of your charge except in the case of ride by attack.
However, in my mind even if your ride by attack with mounted charge allows you to end your movement next to another enemy or within range of another charge attack, your mount has no movement left and ending your charge action within attack of another enemy doesn't mean you've made another charge attack.
I realize some GMs might rule otherwise, but I think it's very much not intended to work that way.
If you want to pull of two mounted charge attacks in a single turn both you and your mount need Barracuda Dash. Which isn't impossible, but is incredibly difficult to achieve.