I have a question about what the order is for an effect that reduces the save result by one degree and a class feature that increases the effect by one degree.
Example: Ray of Enfeeblement say If you critically succeed on your attack roll, use the outcome for one degree of success worse than the result of its save.
Juggernaut say when you roll a success of a Fortitude save, you get a critical success instead.
So does Ray of Enfeeblement reduce a success roll to failure and juggernaut not apply? Or does Juggernaut kick in on the success elevating it to a critical success and Ray of Enfeeblement bringing it back down to a regular success?
Thanks in advance.
I'd go with whichever one helps the player in question, as it feels bad otherwise. In this case, Juggernaut is basically PCs only, so I'd let it trump.
|
I found this. It doesn't answer your question, but maybe your GM can craft a ruling around it:
Some other abilities can change the degree of success for rolls you get. When resolving the effect of an ability that changes your degree of success, always apply the adjustment from a natural 20 or natural 1 before anything else.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
For Ray of Enfeeblement specifically: since the caster rolls the attack roll first, that adjustment should apply first before the adjustment to the saving throw result that the target has.
From a strict RAW point of view, Juggernaut is triggered if you roll a success. So let the player roll, if they roll a success (so before any adjustment) then Juggernaut kicks in, otherwise not. I also think it's quite fair from a ruling, so I don't see why not applying RAW in that case.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not sure how well it generalizes, but I would process effects that happen when you roll a success value before effects that interact with the result of a roll.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For Ray of Enfeeblement specifically: since the caster rolls the attack roll first, that adjustment should apply first before the adjustment to the saving throw result that the target has.
I agree.
But that would likely result in "feels bad man" results where the caster rolls a critical attack, the target (with Juggernaut) rolls a success. Normally the Juggernaut would expect to get a critical success result. Instead, because the enemy rolled a critical attack they down grade the Juggernauts roll from success to failure, Juggernaut doesn't kick in, and the get a failure result instead.
Or, you just rule they cancel each out because the Juggernaut's roll would have been a success so it increases the result but the critical attack roll would decrease it so you just go with the base roll, essentially unmodified.
The first method feels absolutely awful to a player, so I'd probably run it as the second regardless.
It's worth noting that if you're consistent and don't just always do what's in the player's favor then there is always going to be the possibility of a feels bad man moment. If you apply juggernaut first, then if the original roll was a crit suc it won't apply and then the lowering by 1 step will happen resulting in a regular suc. If, on the other hand, juggernaut applies second, then you could roll what would be a success, which gets pushed down to a fail, which juggernaut doesn't apply to.
There's positives and negatives to both methods in the long run. Personally I'd recommend just picking a way that feels right (perhaps even asking the player which way they think it should work) and sticking with it going forward.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It should be worth noting that if these are caused by Fortune and Misfortune effects then you just flat out do not apply EITHER of them and you just roll normally.
The above doesn't apply to the example you provided but it is relevant to the general question being asked about raising/lowering the result of a roll in some cases, the others above covered the bases as for the specific situation posed.
I think this sort of situation was featured in one of the Logan Bonner videos.
Not quite.
The video simply pointed out an actual line of rule text that people were missing rather than giving a dev insight into something that is actually ambiguous.
The scenario in the video is the interaction between the nat-1/nat-20 effect increasing or decreasing the level of success and an ability that increases or decreases the level of success.
Here we are talking about two different abilities that both increase and decrease the level of success.
Well, unless you are talking about a different video than the one I am thinking of.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For Ray of Enfeeblement specifically: since the caster rolls the attack roll first, that adjustment should apply first before the adjustment to the saving throw result that the target has.I agree.
But that would likely result in "feels bad man" results where the caster rolls a critical attack, the target (with Juggernaut) rolls a success. Normally the Juggernaut would expect to get a critical success result. Instead, because the enemy rolled a critical attack they down grade the Juggernauts roll from success to failure, Juggernaut doesn't kick in, and the get a failure result instead.
Or, you just rule they cancel each out because the Juggernaut's roll would have been a success so it increases the result but the critical attack roll would decrease it so you just go with the base roll, essentially unmodified.
The first method feels absolutely awful to a player, so I'd probably run it as the second regardless.
To a point.
Ray of Enfeeblement is already a feels bad man spell, because it's both an attack roll and a save before any effect is done, meaning odds are, no effect will occur. It's basically a poor man's Disintegrate, which is mostly identical in execution.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ray of Enfeeblement is already a feels bad man spell, because it's both an attack roll and a save before any effect is done, meaning odds are, no effect will occur. It's basically a poor man's Disintegrate, which is mostly identical in execution.
But it's a first level spell that never ages (no damage and no Incapacitation tag). In my opinion, it's a pretty potent spell, just not one you want to use at low level with your top most slots but one you'll use at level 5+ when it will use a slot you don't care about.
Ray of Enfeeblement is already a feels bad man spell, because it's both an attack roll and a save before any effect is done, meaning odds are, no effect will occur. It's basically a poor man's Disintegrate, which is mostly identical in execution.But it's a first level spell that never ages (no damage and no Incapacitation tag). In my opinion, it's a pretty potent spell, just not one you want to use at low level with your top most slots but one you'll use at level 5+ when it will use a slot you don't care about.
Neither does Disintegrate, really. If you use Disintegrate for its damage effects, that's just dumb, unless it's your top slot. Even then, it's still dumb, because it has the same double failure mechanic that Ray of Enfeeblement has. Sure, debuffing enemies is great, and can save party members from getting hit/crit, but the concept of it being a lower level utility spell that has very poor overall success rate, the entire point of me making that reference via Disintegrate, still stands.
Disintegrate functions as a utility spell, not a combat spell, which is very much more true in the later levels, and on that front, it's basically an identical appropriation to Ray of Enfeeblement. Need to create a quick exit/entrance from a wall to escape or surprise an enemy? Disintegrate solves that problem pretty well. Is there some crazy object doing bad things to the party? Disintegrate takes care of that problem just fine too. (Actually had this one come up last session. Ended up destroying a valuable item in doing so, but I blame teammates with bad Initiative(s) and not having the appropriate skills to disable the hazard anyway.)
Really, the only difference is one targets a creature and affects Strength checks, the other targets objects or terrain and destroys/eliminates said objects/terrain. Other than one being 5 levels higher than the other, the point still stands IMO.