There are other threads regarding sleight of hand in combat when invisible, so I apologize for adding to the mix, but this is a unique enough circumstance that I figured it bears mentioning.
Ranged Legerdemain is a supernatural ability that allows sleight of hand at a distance. If I am invisible (let's say it is greater invisibility to remove the discussion of whether invisibility breaks when using Sleight of Hand in combat), what happens to the item stolen?
1. Does it simply appear in my possession?
2. It was not invisible when the spell was cast. Does it require a separate action to conceal it within my clothing to make it invisible? Or is it automatically stuffed in a pocket when it is stolen?
3. Suppose the attempt fails (the item is not stolen) and the opponent's perception check notices the attempt. Is the opponent "aware of my presence"? I am 30 feet away using a supernatural ability (so no verbal or somatic components to give away my position). How can I determine if the opponent is "aware of my presence" to determine if I can try again?
4. What if someone randomly shouts out "Thief!" during combat when I have not attempted to steal anything. Does that preclude my using Sleight of Hand at all in combat? Does everyone become "aware" of my presence, even though the one who screamed out was just guessing? (Is this a good party tactic to prevent the DM from ever using invisible arcane tricksters against the party? We just scream that at the start of combat and then we are all aware of any thief that may be about, and sleight of hand is impossible in combat?)
5. Should Ranged Legerdemain only be used outside of combat? The last thing I want to do is slow down combat to try to adjudicate who is aware of my presence, but if I can steal the enemy wizard's headband of vast intellect right off his head in the middle of combat, that seems like it would be a lot of fun!
These are my main questions. I am obviously not playing an arcane trickster for phenomenal cosmic power. I am playing it for some fun, unique experiences that no other character would even contemplate performing.
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This is IMO, I make no claim that this is RAW;
1 No, it would visibly move to your location giving everyone a perception roll vs SoH
2 Once it gets to you you can make it disappear as part of the SoH action that stole it in the first place.
3 Know where you are, no. Aware that someone is try to steal stuff, yes.
4 No, just no.
5 No, you may use it in combat.
My friends opinion;
1 No
2 Swift action to make it disappear, unless you are prepared and can drop it as a free action.
3 You could try again.
4 No, just no.
5 Use it combat, ok.
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Ranged Legerdemain is a supernatural ability that allows sleight of hand at a distance. If I am invisible (let's say it is greater invisibility to remove the discussion of whether invisibility breaks when using Sleight of Hand in combat), what happens to the item stolen?
When you're using Ranged Legerdemain, you're using Mage Hand as a Su ability to perform a Disable Device or Sleight of Hand check. While it does not explicitly say so in Ranged Legerdemain ability, it is inferred that you're using Mage Hand by the requirement of having the spell Mage Hand in the prerequisites for entering the Arcane Trickster PrC. So, the item that is stolen may be manipulated per Mage Hand, and can be moved 15ft in any direction as a Move Action, and if you move the object further than the range of the spell (close 25ft + 5ft/2lvl), the effect ends and the item drops to the ground.
And although you said you want to consider Greater Invisibility only, we can address normal Invisibility pretty quickly. Invisibility only ends if you make an attack against a foe, or if you use a spell that targets a foe, or if your AoE spell includes a foe. Using Mage Hand as a Su ability would qualify as a spell that targets a foe because you're targeting an attended object in the foe's possession, so your Invisibility effect would indeed end. However, Invisibility would NOT end while using Disable Device or Sleight of Hand while you're targeting unattended objects-- you can do this all-day-erry-day and your invis will not end.
School transmutation; Level bard 0, magus 0, psychic 0, sorcerer/wizard 0, summoner/unchained summoner 0
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, SEFFECT
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one non-magical, unattended object weighing up to 5 lbs.
Duration concentration
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance noDESCRIPTION
You point your finger at an object and can lift it and move it at will from a distance. As a move action, you can propel the object as far as 15 feet in any direction, though the spell ends if the distance between you and the object ever exceeds the spell’s range.
School illusion (glamer); Level alchemist 2, antipaladin 2, bard 2, inquisitor 2, magus 2, medium 2, mesmerist 2, occultist 2, psychic 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, spiritualist 2, summoner/unchained summoner 2; Domain trickery 2; Bloodline arcane 2, djinni 2; Elemental School void 2; Mystery shadow 2
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (an eyelash encased in gum arabic)EFFECT
Range personal or touch
Target you or a creature or object weighing no more than 100 lbs./level
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless) or Will negates (harmless, object); Spell Resistance yes (harmless) or yes (harmless, object)DESCRIPTION
The creature or object touched becomes invisible. If the recipient is a creature carrying gear, that vanishes, too. If you cast the spell on someone else, neither you nor your allies can see the subject, unless you can normally see invisible things or you employ magic to do so.
Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible.
Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as swimming in water or stepping in a puddle). If a check is required, a stationary invisible creature has a +40 bonus on its Stealth checks. This bonus is reduced to +20 if the creature is moving. The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions. Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area.
Invisibility can be made permanent (on objects only) with a permanency spell.
The best way to make good use of your Invisibility nonsense is to get Pearls of Power for 1st and 2nd levels, and then pack your 1st and 2nd level spell slots with a healthy amount of Vanish and Invisibility spells (as well as Sense Vitals), and then use Vanish and Invisibility for escape or short-lived invis, but when you go into combat, make sure you have Greater Invisibility. You want to be invisible all the time during combat, and if you have reason to believe that enemies have a See Invisibility or True Seeing spell active, prioritize either killing him first if possible, or consider Blindness or Dispel Magic as alternatives. Your invis is your first line of defense, once they find you, you have to rely on Mirror Image and Displacement, or Dimension Door and teleport somewhere safe if you're truly and rightly screwed. Pro-tip: Dimension Door straight up into the air and "end your turn", but then immediately use Feather Fall as the Immediate Action from your next upcoming turn's Swift Action; now you're floating in the air and when your upcoming turn comes up you can re-enter invis and rain hell for a couple rounds while you float back down to the ground.
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1. Does it simply appear in my possession?
No it doesn't appear in your possession, but you can move the stolen item 15ft closer to you as a Move Action.
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2. It was not invisible when the spell was cast. Does it require a separate action to conceal it within my clothing to make it invisible? Or is it automatically stuffed in a pocket when it is stolen?
You actually do this entire thing using the Sleight of Hand skill. You make a Sleight of Hand check to 'Take Something Unnoticed', and then you simply move the object 15 ft as a Move Action with Ranged Legerdemain until you either set it down somewhere or move it to yourself, and then you make an additional Sleight of Hand check to 'Hide the Object' once it gets to you. If you are invisible while doing this, the stolen item is visible until it actually gets stuffed into your clothing/bag/whatever via your 'Hide an Object' check. If you don't want to 'Hide an Object', you may alternatively 'Stow an Item' as a Move Action. But if you get frisked, they'll most certainly find the item.
Sleight of Hand uses a Standard Action each time you use the skill to 'Hide an Object' or to 'Take Something Unnoticed'. But, you can take a -20 on the Sleight of Hand check to reduce either of these actions to a Move Action if you need to. Unfortunately, all of the Sleight of Hand feats kinda stink, Deft Hands feat would definitely be worth it though-- but I think you'll get more benefit from taking spell and metamagic feats, but Fast Fingers Rogue Talent is pretty nice. If you're committed to this style of play, taking a 2nd level in Rogue and picking up Fast Fingers talent might be worth it: "Fast Fingers: Once per day, a rogue with this talent can roll two dice while making a Sleight of Hand check and take the better result."
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3. Suppose the attempt fails (the item is not stolen) and the opponent's perception check notices the attempt. Is the opponent "aware of my presence"? I am 30 feet away using a supernatural ability (so no verbal or somatic components to give away my position). How can I determine if the opponent is "aware of my presence" to determine if I can try again?
Normally (without invis), when you attempt the 'Take Something Unnoticed' check, you make a DC20 check to 'Take Something Unnoticed', and this is your Success/Fail of actually stealing the item. You keep that same roll for the 2nd part of this; your target now makes an opposed Perception check to your 'Take Something Unnoticed' check, and if his Perception beats your Sleight of Hand, then he's aware of your attempt and definitely knows that it's you who tried to pickpocket him (whether you successfully stole the item or not), but if he fails this perception check, then he's not aware at all (whether you successfully stole the item or not).
Now add invisibility and ranged legerdemain; you would perform the DC20 check to 'Take Something Unnoticed' and see if you successfully steal the item or not, and now your target makes an opposed Perception check to your Sleight of Hand check to notice the attempt. If he notices, then he's only aware that someone tried to pickpocket him, but he won't be positive who, nor would he know which direction you are. The target would be given a new Perception check because now he's scanning the crowd looking for potential thieves (you would make an opposed Stealth check to be noticed by this Perc check). You're invisible and 30ft away, and probably not moving, so your stealth check is going to be redonkulous. But, if ye olde shopkeep somehow passes this roll, then he definitely earned it.
As far as future attempts at stealing from this guy,
Retry? Yes, but after an initial failure, a second Sleight of Hand attempt against the same target (or while you are being watched by the same observer who noticed your previous attempt) increases the DC for the task by 10.
So rather than deal with any potential shenanigans from the DM, I would recommend starting a metaphorical "food fight in the marketplace" as a massive distraction to load their Perception check with so many negatives that your -10 from this Sleight of Hand won't cause you to fail this next attempt. Wait about 3-5 minutes, and try to Sleight of Hand a different item from this guy (we'll affectionally call him "Target Shopkeep"), except this time purposefully wave the stolen item in his face so he notices it and set the item down on the table of the adjacent shopkeep that we'll affectionately name "Mr. Patsy". Now lift another item off of another shopkeep's table, wave it in his face so he notices it as well, and then also place it on Mr. Patsy's table. This will inevitably queue an "arguing squirrels scene" between these 2 furious shopkeeps bearing down upon their competitor who you're framing for stealing from them, and while this is going on, Sleight of Hand the real item you were trying to steal from the original failed attempt. If you need more chaos to this scene, find a pie cart, get creative with a minor illusion that can make it seem like one of Mr. Patsy's loyal servants is holding a pie, and start an actual food fight by using Mage Hand and smashing "Target Shopkeep" with a real pie.
Proceed with stealing your McGuffin as the guards are sorting this mess out.
You should also get these gloves asap Gloves Masterful Gray
Also, either get a wand of Magic Aura or a couple Concealing Pockets and sew them into your cloak. It makes hiding magic items that you steal a lot easier when they can't use Detect Magic when they frisk you.
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4. What if someone randomly shouts out "Thief!" during combat when I have not attempted to steal anything. Does that preclude my using Sleight of Hand at all in combat? Does everyone become "aware" of my presence, even though the one who screamed out was just guessing? (Is this a good party tactic to prevent the DM from ever using invisible arcane tricksters against the party? We just scream that at the start of combat and then we are all aware of any thief that may be about, and sleight of hand is impossible in combat?)
I'm going to break this one down into sub-questions:
4. What if someone randomly shouts out "Thief!" during combat when I have not attempted to steal anything.
If someone accuses you of being a thief and you haven't attempted to steal anything, then you can bluff/diplomacy your way out of it. "Prove it buddy, I got nothing to hide."
If you're invisible and someone shouts "Thief!", I would immediately run or teleport. Invisible people with a rogue's lockpicking set and rogue-ish magic items hanging out in the middle of a marketplace is a BAD first impression, and you're going to have fun explaining that to the guards if those merchants tackle you or catch you, whether you actually stole something or not.
Does that preclude my using Sleight of Hand at all in combat?
You cannot use Sleight of Hand to steal during combat at all. There is a combat maneuver called Steal for this type of action. If you want to be able to Steal during combat, I'd recommend getting the Improved Steal as a minimum to prevent provoking AoO's, and get Agile Maneuvers feat so you can Dex in lieu of Str for your maneuver. But this sort of playstyle is mainly for if you're okay with getting into combat, stealing an item from the target, and then withdrawing and starting chase scenes or having the guards called on a regular basis. Honestly, I dislike murderhobo parties, but dead men tell no tales, and they don't call the guards when you loot their bodies either :)
Does everyone become "aware" of my presence, even though the one who screamed out was just guessing? (Is this a good party tactic to prevent the DM from ever using invisible arcane tricksters against the party? We just scream that at the start of combat and then we are all aware of any thief that may be about, and sleight of hand is impossible in combat?)
If you're visible, then yes, everyone is now aware of your presence, because someone is shouting "thief!" and pointing at you. If you're invisible and someone shouts "thief!", nobody is aware of your presence, but they're all going to make a Perception check to scan the crowd for thieves, and you will make a Stealth check opposed to all these Perc checks. Nobody likes thieves and this is especially true for merchants, and like I said earlier, if you're invisible in a marketplace and you get caught, whether you've stolen anything or not, you're going to have a rough night explaining yourself; so if you're invisible in a marketplace and someone shouts "thief!", I would run or teleport.
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5. Should Ranged Legerdemain only be used outside of combat? The last thing I want to do is slow down combat to try to adjudicate who is aware of my presence, but if I can steal the enemy wizard's headband of vast intellect right off his head in the middle of combat, that seems like it would be a lot of fun!
You can use Ranged Legerdemain to disable devices while in combat, but you can't use it for Sleight of Hand. In-combat-sleight-of-hand is the Steal maneuver.
If you want to steal the enemy wizard's headband, that's a steal maneuver. So if you're committed to this style of play, I would actually recommend that you don't go Arcane Trickster for this; it is a shame that Arcane Tricksters are feat-starved and need a lot of magic feats to be good. So if you really want to use the Steal maneuver in combat, I'd recommend going for an Eldritch Knight and look into Magic Trick for Mage Hand, and then using the bonus feats from EK for getting Feats for Steal. Quick Steal can reduce your Steal action to a single melee attack, instead of using a Standard Action, and that's huge.
If you decide to not pursue Steal with Eldritch Knight and stick with Sleight of Hand with Arcane Trickster, I'd still recommend looking into Magic Trick for Mage Hand. Especially this one: "Powerful Hand (Spellcraft 3 ranks): You can increase the weight of objects you can move by 5 pounds for every 3 ranks you have in Spellcraft." Now you can use Mage Hand and Ranged Legerdemain on much heavier objects, and you can apply more force when using Disable Device on traps that use pressure plates.
Other Magic Trick (Mage Hand) to consider:
Reaching Hand (Precise Shot or Reach Spell): You can focus as a swift action before casting mage hand to increase its range to 50 feet + 5 feet per caster level. If the target of your mage hand spell is outside of the spell’s standard range at the start of your turn, you must spend another swift action to focus again or the spell immediately ends.
Subtle Hand (Deft Hands, Disable Device 6 ranks, Sleight of Hand 6 ranks): You can attempt Disable Device and Sleight of Hand checks within range of your mage hand. Working at a distance increases the normal skill check DC by 5, and you cannot take 10 on this check.
One major benefit of getting both Ranged Legerdemain AND Subtle Hand is that now you'll have a Spell version (Subtle Hand) and a Supernatural version (Ranged Legerdemain) of being able to use Sleight of Hand and Disable Device from range. So if one cannot work in a given circumstance because of DM shenanigans, then it's possible that the other will.
I should clarify a couple things.
Firstly, when you use Ranged Legerdemain and you're out of combat, you're not actually performing Standard Actions and Move Actions because you're not under Initiative, so your Sleight of Hand happens instantly. However, when you're 30ft away and use Ranged Legerdemain to steal something, it doesn't just "fwiiiP!" straight to your hand as if it teleports, the stolen item moves at the rate that Mage Hand will allow, and anyone nearby is going to get a Perc check to notice it flying at 15ft/3seconds towards you (which is still pretty fast).
So, I highly recommend that you get Gloves Masterful Gray and turn the flying item invisible the exact second that it touches your gloves for long pulls when you absolutely cannot get close. It's going to be painfully obvious that you're an invisible thief when the flying item doesn't turn invisible until it actually gets put away in your clothing/bag, etc, especially after that thing just flew 30ft over 6 seconds and everyone saw it. For long pulls that you know could/will be noticed, you could try to pass it off by turning the item invisible the exact second it reaches your gloves, and simultaneously cast a Ventriloquism or Ghost Sound spell that emulates some sort of local superstition. Another alternative is using Ghost Sound to cause a distraction just prior to your Ranged Legerdemain attempt; Ghost Sound: You can produce as much noise as four normal humans per caster level (maximum 40 humans)... A roaring lion is equal to the noise from 16 humans, while a roaring dragon is equal to the noise from 32 humans." All you need to do is get them to turn their heads for a few seconds like "wtf!" while you fwiip! your mcguffin to your hand. But for almost all other circumstances, you could get within about 5-10ft and fwiip! that thing into your hand and stow it pretty fast without too many people noticing.
Secondly, you *can* use Ranged Legerdemain to use Sleight of Hand while you're in combat, but not vs. someone you are in combat against... if that makes sense. Consider the beginning scene in the cartoon Road to El Dorado and Miguel and Tulio are "playfighting" while stealing from the onlookers who were distracted by watching the combat. If you got into combat with an Assassin in a marketplace, if you wanted to steal something from the Assassin, you'd have to use the Steal combat maneuver because you're in combat with him. But, if you want to steal from any of the nearby merchants while in combat with the Assassin, you can use Sleight of Hand via Ranged Legerdemain, because you're in combat with the Assassin, not in combat with the Merchant. Hopefully that helps :P
I'm not sure I agree with Ryze that mage hand is the mechanism by which Ranged Legerdemain happens, but I don't have anything else to use as a basis and the ability doesn't specify. So using mage hand, isn't a bad basis.
Although, I might have said you can move the item 30ft in one round, instead of 15ft but I'm not sure it matters terribly. I think either way it's going to be pretty obvious that whatever object is now floating through the air in a direction.
If you were to do this while the enemy is engaged in combat with your party members I might require a (low) perception check for them to notice it happening. After all combat is hectic and distracting, but it shouldn't be hard for at least one person to notice. And at that point, the enemy is definitely aware you're there in the combat, even if they don't know where you're located.
Very well-thought-out response
I appreciate your response. It is clearly well thought out and went into a lot of detail addressing all of my questions! I did not quote the entire post, as it was very long, but I would like to respond to it.
I deliberately did not include the discussion about regular invisibility because that spell is difficult to adjudicate. You mention that it can be addressed "quickly", but I disagree. Here is the part of the Invisibility spell that really confounds your point on the subject:
Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions.
So, if I decide that the person I am stealing from is not a friend nor a foe, just a target for theft, then they are? If I decide it, then that is my perception, right? Basically, I can decide not to break my invisibility when targeting a creature simply by deciding the target is not a foe? Example: I want to steal the wizard's headband of vast intellect. So, I decide, "You know, he's not a bad guy! I bet if that silly headband weren't clouding his judgment, he would stop attacking us. I'll help my friend here from the detrimental effects of that headband." And all of a sudden, he is not a foe anymore! He is a treasured ally, whom I am saving from the clutches of the vile headband. Now, I am using a beneficial effect on the target (in my perception)!
These types of arguments are beyond the scope of this thread, and I tried to deliberately avoid the discussion. You could easily say that is a garbage argument, and I would not entirely disagree. In general, it is fairly clear who is friend and who is foe, and mental gymnastics to switch it up is not in the spirit of the game. But, I did not want to have such debates, which is why I excluded that topic from the discussion.
Next, I have a small nitpick about treating Ranged Legerdemain as if it were a supernatural ability that produces a Mage Hand effect. I think that is a dangerous idea. Ranged Legerdemain does not mention the ability to move items within its range, and treating it as Mage Hand may be conferring abilities it does not possess. If the Disable Device skill or the Sleight of Hand skill offer ways that an item can move within the range of the effect, then by all means, I agree Ranged Legerdemain can move items. But, saying it grants telekinesis up to 5 lbs within range gives it more utility than the ability is supposed to confer. If you want Mage Hand, cast Mage Hand. If you want Ranged Legerdemain, that appears to be a completely different ability.
In fact, thinking more about it, I am unconvinced you can bring the item to you using Ranged Legerdemain at all. You could make a Sleight of Hand check to take the item from the target, but once it is taken, I think it is just lying unattended in their square. You can then make a Sleight of Hand check to hide the item, and that use may allow the item to move, but probably not 30 feet.
Additional problems using Mage Hand as the template for Ranged Legerdemain is that currently, the supernatural ability is just augmenting skills. This means if you are attacked while using Ranged Legerdemain for an action that takes multiple rounds, you can continue the action without any trouble. But, if it is instead just the Mage Hand spell (which requires concentration), then you need to make concentration checks. Additionally, you mention the Mage Hand spell is targeted while Ranged Legerdemain is not. Ranged Legerdemain is just an expanded use of two skills (allowing them to be used at 30 feet). I think it is a mistake to treat Ranged Legerdemain as the Mage Hand spell.
Response to questions 2 & 3
Your responses to these questions make a lot of sense! Thank you! I realize, though, that I did not ask the question I really intended. I was questioning specifically the part of Take an Item Unnoticed referenced here:
If you try to take something from a creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check. The opponent makes a Perception check to detect the attempt, opposed by the Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item. You cannot use this skill to take an object from another creature during combat if the creature is aware of your presence.
*emphasis mine
Later, you explain that Sleight of Hand cannot be used during combat, but the quote above says that it can so long as the creature is unaware of my presence. Question #3 was related to the situation when you fail against a target in combat. Now, the target is aware that something was taken, but I was not sure if they are "aware of my presence".
When discussing combat awareness and thievery with a friend, my friend said, "Once they are aware a thief is about, they are automatically more on alert, making sleight of hand in combat impossible." This is what led to my thought of using that defensively (question 4), and just calling out "Thief!" to try to make everyone aware of the presence of any possible thieves in combat, protecting us for the duration from any would-be thieves. But, I did word that question rather poorly.
It makes sense that a combat maneuver could be used in combat, even if the target is aware of your presence. But, it does not explain when a target is or is not aware of my presence, especially if a Sleight of Hand check is perceived by the opponent.
Response to questions 4 & 5
These two questions were worded very poorly, and you gave great responses regardless! I appreciate all of the thought you put into them, and what you say makes a lot of sense (with the exception of Sleight of Hand not being usable in combat).
For question 5, I asked the wrong question. I should have asked, "Should Take Item Unnoticed use of Sleight of Hand be only usable outside of combat?" And it appears from your answer, you believe the answer to be yes, and that in combat, only the Steal combat maneuver should be used. I appreciate your input, and that makes a lot of sense. I think I will suggest that to my group.
Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions.So, if I decide that the person I am stealing from is not a friend nor a foe, just a target for theft, then they are?
I realize that you don't want to get into a lengthy discussion about this, so let's table this for later if you want. This is honestly a discussion you need to have with your GM, because your perception of who is friend or foe is entirely up to you and him.
Not that my opinion matters in how you guys decide what's best for your game, but my view on it is that your PC allies are obviously your allies, and you would never actually steal from them (if you're playing a good campaign, I hope). Your DMNPC's are also allies if they travel with you in your party. After that, I'd also include any NPC who is friendly or reveres you and you have reciprocal feelings towards them; these people are NPC's who you have an ongoing relationship with, who freely supply you with goods, weapons, services, information, etc. either for no charge or a low or even fair-market or "friend's price" gold fee. If you did use Ranged Legerdemain on any of these people it would not break your invisibility effect per se, because they are your friends, and whatever you're grabbing from them is obviously going to be returned promptly or as soon as feasibly possible. Anyone outside of these definitions/guidelines are considered foes; these are people who you're unfamiliar with, who you do not consider friends or even acquaintances, and if you did use Ranged Legerdemain on any of these people you probably wouldn't return what you stole, and it would indeed end your Invisibility.
Anyone you use Ranged Legerdemain upon whom you wouldn't consider friends but also wouldn't actually end your Invisibility would be decided by you and your GM as a case-by-case basis.
Anywho, let's table this and get back on topic. If you want to talk about this at the end, I'm down.
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Next, I have a small nitpick about treating Ranged Legerdemain as if it were a supernatural ability that produces a Mage Hand effect. I think that is a dangerous idea. Ranged Legerdemain does not mention the ability to move items within its range, and treating it as Mage Hand may be conferring abilities it does not possess. If the Disable Device skill or the Sleight of Hand skill offer ways that an item can move within the range of the effect, then by all means, I agree Ranged Legerdemain can move items. But, saying it grants telekinesis up to 5 lbs within range gives it more utility than the ability is supposed to confer. If you want Mage Hand, cast Mage Hand. If you want Ranged Legerdemain, that appears to be a completely different ability.
I'm not sure I agree with Ryze that mage hand is the mechanism by which Ranged Legerdemain happens, but I don't have anything else to use as a basis and the ability doesn't specify. So using mage hand, isn't a bad basis.
Both of you are absolutely correct, the Mage Hand spell is not a hard rule for Su Ranged Legerdemain per RAW, it is only inferred that this is how it's supposed to operate, and the Ranged Legerdemain Su ability is in fact undefined about how fast you can move an object to your hand. This is something you absolutely must discuss with your GM and arrive at something you both agree upon-- ideally prior to your character creation. Whether it teleports to your hand, or moves 15ft/3sec (30ft/round), or half the speed of a fart is entirely up to you.
Mechanically speaking, Mage Hand and Ranged Legerdemain become almost synonymous in actual play because both are at-will and both of them manipulate objects that are 5lbs or less. Except, you can perform Ranged Legerdemain and Mage Hand on unattended objects, but you can only perform Ranged Legerdemain on attended objects. Mage Hand will not work on attended objects.
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In fact, thinking more about it, I am unconvinced you can bring the item to you using Ranged Legerdemain at all. You could make a Sleight of Hand check to take the item from the target, but once it is taken, I think it is just lying unattended in their square. You can then make a Sleight of Hand check to hide the item, and that use may allow the item to move, but probably not 30 feet.
While you could make that argument RAW, I would strongly disagree with you about RAI. Sleight of Hand checks are meant to pickpocket, palm, and then hide things on your person. The concept of "Ranged Legerdemain being powered (inferred) by Mage Hand" also infers that you can pickpocket from 30ft away, palm, and then hide things on your person so well that can survive you being frisked if/when caught (and this is a differentiation from rogues who have magic items to aid them, but don't have magic spells to aid them;;; i.e. as an AT, you can cast Magic Aura on magic items that you've just stolen before the guards show up, and it appears to them as a mundane item::::: Rogues, while being infinitely better at Sleight of Hand checks due to Rogue Talents, cannot do this without the aid of magical items or UMD checks). Pulling an object out of someone's pocket from 30ft away that simply falls into their square defeats one of the most core abilities about how an Arcane Trickster operates.
Additional problems using Mage Hand as the template for Ranged Legerdemain is that currently, the supernatural ability is just augmenting skills. This means if you are attacked while using Ranged Legerdemain for an action that takes multiple rounds, you can continue the action without any trouble. But, if it is instead just the Mage Hand spell (which requires concentration), then you need to make concentration checks. Additionally, you mention the Mage Hand spell is targeted while Ranged Legerdemain is not. Ranged Legerdemain is just an expanded use of two skills (allowing them to be used at 30 feet). I think it is a mistake to treat Ranged Legerdemain as the Mage Hand spell.
Tbqf, you are not going to be using Ranged Legerdemain in combat, ever. If you do, it is extremely rare and extraordinarily situational. Ranged Legerdemain is straight up out-of-combat use 99.9999% of the time. The only time that you can use Ranged Legerdemain in combat is if your target is currently unaware that you even exist, and the Arcane Trickster's "jobs", if he has official "jobs", is to always Always ALWAYS have Invisibility active in one form or another so that you can scout for your party to 1) give your group surprise rounds and 2) prevent surprise rounds upon your group; and then regardless of whether you get a surprise round or are ambushed, the AT's second "job" is to START combat by hucking a Widened Fireball or an Intensified Firesnake or Chain Lightning that causes a whole bunch of damage plus 7d6 SnA damage to everyone that spell just hit, and pray for reflex save fails for max dmg. Many times, combat starts whether you want it to or not, and when that happens, you're still "expected" to begin combat invisible.
But when you get the chance to actually Ambush an enemy party, this is your chance to really shine; your "job" is to sneak up while invisible, use Silent Spell to activate both Sense Vitals for additional SnA dmg and Greater Invisibility (because they both have verbal components), and then give your entire party a Surprise Round that starts with you hucking a Widened Fireball or an Intensified Firesnake that causes a whole bunch of damage plus 7d6 SnA damage (+SenseVitals SnA dmg) to everyone that stuff just hit. <---- Btw, this is once you get Surprise Spells at Arcane Trickster level 10. Before that, you're going to start combat invisible but using Ray or Ranged Touch Attacks to cause SnA damage (with Sense Vitals active if/when possible). Alternatively, sneaking up and Heightened Hold Person is also probably better strategy than using Ranged Legerdemain to start combat. There are very, very few times where performing Ranged Legerdemain on a target is the proper way to start combat in lieu of any of these SnA options.
Why is starting combat invisible and remaining invisible throughout combat so important? Because enemies are denied their dex bonus to AC vs. invisible attackers, and all of your rays, ranged touch attacks, and surprise spells cause SnA dmg. As soon as you're about level 4 Arcane Trickster, you'll be 1rogue/3wiz/4AT, so level 8, and you'll be causing 4d6 SnA with each Ray or Reach spell you deliver (not including Sense Vitals), and it's going to account for roughly 40%-50% of your total damage as long as you can manage your invisibility/re-invisibility like a pro. Once you reach level 14, you get Surprise Spells, so you'll be causing SnA damage with spells that don't even have attack rolls, like fireball, firesnake, and chain lightning. If you add up all the damage from your Sneak Attacks over the course of an entire campaign, well over 50%-60% of all the damage you've ever caused is going to come from SnA.
If your DM is putting out mooks that are nothing but constructs, undead, and other things that are immune to precision damage and critical strikes, then your DM is doing it wrong, quite frankly.
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Your responses to these questions make a lot of sense! Thank you! I realize, though, that I did not ask the question I really intended. I was questioning specifically the part of Take an Item Unnoticed referenced here:
Sleight of Hand wrote:
If you try to take something from a creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check. The opponent makes a Perception check to detect the attempt, opposed by the Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item. You cannot use this skill to take an object from another creature during combat if the creature is aware of your presence.
This is accurate. If combat ensues with your allies, and you've started combat invisible and the enemies are currently unaware that you exist, then you have a couple of options: 1) activate Sense Vitals and fry the most frightening target(s), 2) start combat with crowd control with Create Pit, Slow, or Black Tentacles, or w/e you deem fit 3) buff your group with something awesome like Haste, or Enlarge Person on your melee/tank ally, or 4) start combat with Ranged Legerdemain to steal the doomsday device from the BBEG's pocket. Once you cast a spell, buff your allies, or attack in any way, your enemies are "aware" that you do in fact "exist", and are indeed aware of your "presence" and now Ranged Legerdemain is no longer possible. Sure you still benefit from things like Total Concealment, their inability to pinpoint your location, and even if they did pinpoint your location they'd have a 50% miss chance, but from there on out, you'd have to use Steal combat maneuver; Ranged Legerdemain is no longer possible.
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When discussing combat awareness and thievery with a friend, my friend said, "Once they are aware a thief is about, they are automatically more on alert, making sleight of hand in combat impossible."
This is not entirely accurate, but is accurate at the same time. You do not enter combat with any of these people if you're invisible and some random person shouts "thief!", so Ranged Legerdemain(SloH) is not impossible per se. But yes, each person who heard this would become much more alert and sleight of hand checks or Ranged Legerdemain checks would have a much, much higher difficulty for sure. These difficulties would be decided by the DM and per the Perception rules/modifiers.
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It makes sense that a combat maneuver could be used in combat, even if the target is aware of your presence. But, it does not explain when a target is or is not aware of my presence, especially if a Sleight of Hand check is perceived by the opponent.
If someone yells "thief!" in a marketplace and you're invisible, everyone in that marketplace just entered a heightened state of awareness and "know" that you exist; whether real or perceived is up for debate. They don't know your location, they don't know your direction from their location, and in fact they know absolutely nothing about you. They just know that there is a thief in the midst (real or perceived threat), and now they're all looking about for the thief. And like I said before, this is why I would encourage you to run or teleport in a situation like this whether you've stolen anything or not. You're invisible in a marketplace, you have rogue's lockpicking tools, a spellbook full of spells that help you be a rogue, and a short litany of items that also help you be a rogue or spellcaster focused on rogue-ish things. If the combined effort of the merchants or guards catch and subdue you, you're going to have a pretty rough day explaining yourself whether you've stolen anything or not, and especially so if you made any attempt to run or fight back once you were found out. And may the gods be with you if you're carrying anything they deem superstitious or overtly evil. And who knows? Maybe some of these merchants are looking for insurance payouts and even claim they're missing stuff that you didn't even take so they can make additional profits. Merchants hate thieves and love profits.
So, if I decide that the person I am stealing from is not a friend nor a foe, just a target for theft, then they are? If I decide it, then that is my perception, right? Basically, I can decide not to break my invisibility when targeting a creature simply by deciding the target is not a foe?
Friend/Foe is a binary. Either someone is your friend/ally, or someone is a foe/enemy. And it's not a subjective, whatever is most conveniant/advantageous at the time.
Question: If I cast a fireball, and I tell the GM that I believe the fireball frying all of the goblins swarming about is a gesture of friendship, and so will not break my invisibility, should the GM let me stay invisible? If not, why is stealing an item from someone any different?
Definitely no mental shenanigans to get around whether or not an NPC recognizes you as an enemy or not. Although I disagree about it being binary.
You can totally be neutral, as well as a friend/ally, foe/enemy.
What you can't do, is decide that someone is your friend if they would react negatively to whatever your doing just to pretend like it doesn't break invisibility. I know what the rules in Invisibility say, that it depends on the individual point of view. But there's no convincing yourself that an target is your friend. Your character would know that isn't true.
If the NPC knew what was happening, they would definitely be your enemy. And invisibility will definitely break.
I might rule that a friend, who knows your invisible, and wants to perform a trick with you, could allow you take something off of them and you would maintain invisibility.
But no mental shenanigans on the part of you/your character is going to prevent invisibility from breaking when you steal something from the NPCs.