Does a caestus impede grappling?


Rules Questions


I am looking at the weapon the caestus. It says it imposes a penalty on finger manipulation; when I look at pictures of caesti from real life, a lot of them sure look like they'd get in the way of you grabbing someone. But it never says whether this would fall under it and I haven't seen anything written on the topic.

What is the answer?


Grappling isn't usually about fine finger manipulation. Snakes have no fingers and are great at grappling.

Also: No Hands Grappling


Cestus wrote:

Cestus

Cost 5 gp Weight 1 lb.
Damage 1d3 (small), 1d4 (medium) Critical 19-20/x2 Type bludgeoning or piercing
Category light Proficiency simple
Weapon Groups close, monk
Special monk

The cestus is a glove of leather or thick cloth that covers the wielder from mid-finger to mid-forearm. The close combat weapon is reinforced with metal plates over the fingers and often lined with wicked spikes along the backs of the hands and wrists.

Benefit: While wearing a cestus, you are considered armed and your unarmed attacks deal normal damage. If you are proficient with a cestus, your unarmed strikes may deal bludgeoning or piercing damage. Monks are proficient with the cestus.

Drawback: When using a cestus, your fingers are mostly exposed, allowing you to wield or carry items in that hand, but the constriction of the weapon at your knuckles gives you a –2 penalty on all precision-based tasks involving that hand (such as opening locks).

Short answer: Yes, you may wear a cestus and grapple with zero penalties.

It depends on whether your GM considers Grappling to be a precision-based task-- when they wrote this rule, they meant it to be for skills, not combat maneuvers. I am an experienced wrestler irl I've had to wrestle with my hand mummified in athletic tape due to a broken finger and I wouldn't consider grappling to be a precision-based task "requiring fingers", and anyway, per strict RAW, yes you may Grapple a target while wearing a Cestus with zero penalties for the Grapple check. You can even hold a sword or a dagger in that hand while also wearing a Cestus.


Not a cestus, but the fingers seem similarly impeded.


Yeah, I was mostly hoping for RAW clarifications and IRL experience. That example of wrestling with athletic tape was very useful. I figured you'd need full use of your fingers/palm to get enough leverage to actually hold on, or at least, not have it impeded.

Although... if it lets you carry items, and therefore weapons... can you use the weapon while having the caestus on? And does THAT get impeded? Because if it does, that would seem to imply that it should affect other similar things.


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mAcular wrote:
Yeah, I was mostly hoping for RAW clarifications and IRL experience. That example of wrestling with athletic tape was very useful. I figured you'd need full use of your fingers/palm to get enough leverage to actually hold on, or at least, not have it impeded.

It does impede your ability to hand-fight vs. experienced wrestlers, which tbh is one of the most important aspects of wrestling, because your finger dexterity allows you grab the wrists, elbows/forearms, head, and triceps to get into position to perform leg shots and throws, as well as forcing your opponent to move in directions you want him to go so that you can catch him off-balance for a split second. But once you get past his hands and get "inside control" or "outside control" on your opponent, your finger dexterity becomes less important because you're grabbing limbs and the torso with your whole hand or even capturing body parts with your forearm and the inner-portion of your elbow.

Honestly, hand-fighting (and therefore finger dexterity) is only important vs. other experienced wrestlers who understand the value/importance of hand-fighting. Inexperienced wrestlers don't hand fight and are almost "feral" in their form, footwork, stance (and stance changes), and their center of balance, so "getting inside control" or "outside control" on an inexperienced wrestler is either 1) impossible due to them feral-flailing about, or 2) incredibly easy because of their lack of hand-fighting experience. One of the biggest things that I notice when wrestling with people who are inexperienced in wrestling is that their stance and center of balance absolutely sucks, so they are easily knocked off balance with even the slightest attempt to gain either inside or outside control. <---- and none of this requires finger dexterity

mAcular wrote:
Although... if it lets you carry items, and therefore weapons... can you use the weapon while having the caestus on? And does THAT get impeded? Because if it does, that would seem to imply that it should affect other similar things.

Yes you can grip the weapon and swing it normally, it does not mechanically impede your ability to hit/damage per the rules.


This is Handfighting irl


mAcular wrote:

... cestus. It says it imposes a penalty on finger manipulation...

What is the answer?

see the post with the rule text or check the text on Archive of Nethys. "precision based tasks" means skill usage and may imply "precision damage" from sneak attacks. I don't think the latter will be an issue due to the example given in RAW. Thus relegated to situation where skill usage specifically involves the hand wearing the cestus. Users should simply take it off while using the skill out of combat.

This makes the cestus a common 'always armed' option for wizards that's better than a spiked gauntlet.

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