|
| 7 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So, with some new options coming out if the current set of books, I've ended up going back to read the Envoy's Magical Expertise and a few things seem a little unclearly worded. Given, I may be reading them a certain way because I want it to work a certain way. I've discussed some of this on the Discord, usually in opposition, so I wanted to check on here.
Found a few threads on the Alternative Class Feature, but not quite on what I wanted to see clarified.
1. Does having the Mystic's Spell Class Feature, even a limited one, mean you also get access to Bonus Spell Slots when you are able to cast Spells of that level? The Feature mentions after the progression of the reduced spells known and spells per day, that the feature otherwise functions just like the normal Mystic's Spells Class Feature, of which Bonus Spells are a subsection of the Feature.
2. Does your Charisma ability modifier replace all uses of the Wisdom ability modifier for the Spells feature? It's been brought up that only the highest level of spells available and DC are the only specifically mentioned applications.
3. Do the three level 0 spell per day castings you start with count as spell slots? From my reading, spells per day and spell slots are essentially the same thing. If an ability or piece of equipment were to have spending a spell slot as a trigger, could you use one of your level 0 castings to trigger it?
I might have other questions, but these three are the ones that stay at the forefront of, maybe depending on the reading and intent, Magical Expertise might actually be a bit better than we've been given it credit for (or at least it's getting better as new options to compliment it are introduced)
|
I've really wanted to make Magical Expertise work (especially with Spell Speaker, like you!) but the lack of spell slots really hampers it - it's just not worth the trade, imo. However, I hadn't even considered Bonus Spells! It's very feasible for an Envoy to snag 20 Cha by lvl 4 or 5, so they could potentially get up to 1 lvl1 spell known, with 3 lvl1 slots? Hmm. I'd argue it's still not a great choice purely mechanically, but - it is less bad, and the "spell bard" flavour can't be beat!
Taking a stab at the questions:
1. I'm hitting the FAQ button, 'cause I'm curious if we can get an official answer to this. I'd allow Bonus Spells for a high Cha, but I tend to err in the players' favour unless the matter at hand is egregiously broken (which, surely, this is not lol.) I think you can make a solid case from this wording: "Otherwise, this ability functions as the mystic’s spells class feature." The Bonus Spells verbiage is included in the mystic's spells class feature ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ If Bonus Spells were a separare Class Feature it'd be a different case.
2. This one is a "yes" imo - use Cha in all places the Mystic would otherwise use Wis. It states "You use your Charisma score in place of your Wisdom score when determining the effects of your spellcasting, including..." which pretty strongly implies "including but not limited to." Enforcing some kind of weird dual attribute spellcasting would be very strange, and not in keeping with all the other spellcasting in the game.
(It would be harder to argue that you can use Cha in place of Wis for other spell-related applications, like the bonus healing on Mystic Cure, for example, which specifically calls out Wis mod, and isn't included in the Spells class feature. Were I GM, I'd allow it with the caveat that we'd revisit if it proved really damaging to balance; then again see above re: ruling in players' favour, haha.)
3. I think this question is a case-by-case call by the GM, dependent on what you're expending spell slots to do.
Hmm. Time to revisit theorycrafting a spell speaker magical expertise envoy...
|
|
Yeah, I definitely don't think Magical Expertise was meant to make an ENvoy as good as a Mystic, but it does seem like it may be being read as being a bit less effective than it was intended. There is only one facet in which it is clearly superior to the basic Mystic Spells Class Feature, which is well balanced by all the other limits on spells per day and spells known.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Does having the Mystic's Spell Class Feature, even a limited one, mean you also get access to Bonus Spell Slots when you are able to cast Spells of that level?
The more I look at it the more that looks like a firm no. It's not a matter of having a charisma modifier or not
Unlike a mystic, your selection of spells and spells per day is extremely limited. You begin play knowing one 0-level mystic spell, and you can cast your 0-level spells three times per day. At 5th level, you learn one 1st-level mystic spell and can cast it once per day. At 9th level, you learn one 2nd-level mystic spell and can cast it once per day. At 13th level, you learn one 3rd-level mystic spell and can cast it once per day. At 17th level, you learn one 4th-level mystic spell and can cast it once per day.
that replaces everything about the mystics spells including
You can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Your number of spells per day is given on Table 4–4: Mystic. In addition, you receive bonus spells per day if you have a Wisdom modifier of +1 or higher, as shown on Table 4–5: Mystic Bonus Spells—note that you only receive these bonus spells once you can cast spells of that level normally. Y
So it doesn't matter if you cross out wisdom and substitute charisma, you're deleting that entire section anyway.
Agree, this and the nanocyte option in GalMag are very limited.
|
|
Agree, this and the nanocyte option in GalMag are very limited.
Oooh, I think the compare-and-contrast with Nanocytes' Eldritch Array is very interesting! Both classes get the same extremely limited spell slots (1 lvl 1 spell slot @ lvl 5) but Nanocytes start off with cantrips at 3+½lvl per day, whereas Envoys start, and remain, at 3 per day. Further, Nanocytes get the option to turn Nanite Surges, one of their daily resources, into new spell slots. Considering there are class features to get more nanite surges, as well as (starting at 5th lvl) the ability to convert RP to Nanite Surges, Eldritch Nanocytes have the option to get way more spells per day, albeit gated at once per spell lvl per 10 min rest. Considering it's very feasible to get 10+ Nanites by early-mid level, you can dump a lot of Nanite Surgers into new spells, although you're forced to spend RP to remain SP in between. Oh, and Eldritch Array gives you a +1 to all saves vs spells, as a cherry on top.
Envoys cannot convert with RP or other daily resources, but they can sacrifice an Expertise Talent (at lvl 3, 7, 11, 15, and 19) to gain additional slots; the way the Expertise Talents are staggered between Envoys' new spell levels, though, means that the first opportunity to get more lvl 1 spell slots comes from sacrificing your lvl 11 Talent, so...rough. I guess the chief redeeming factor there is Envoys also get more spells known in that trade as well (...although it only brings them up to the level of spells known that Nanocytes get, by default.)
The only area where Magical Envoys seem to have a leg up over Magical Nanocytes is action economy, in that Nanocytes need to spend Actions to bring up the Eldritch Array, and then spend Swift Actions to convert Surges to Spells.
I don't really have a point here; just typing out my thoughts comparing the two non-casters-becoming-casters alternate class features.
If anything, showing how much weaker Magical Envoy is than Magical Nanocyte makes me think the Magical Enjoy should get bonus spells/day from high Cha. Interestingly, the "Otherwise, this ability functions as the mystic’s spells class feature" wording, that I think leaves that door open for Magical Envoys to get bonus spell slots, is missing from Magical Nanocytes.
The Mechanic Experimental Appratus alternative class feature also has limited spellcasting.
At 10th level you get two unlimited use 0-level, one 1st-level, and one 2nd-level per day, using embedded (but not expended) spell gems in place of spells known. At 13th you get a 3rd level spell, at 16th a 4th level spell, and you can spend mechanic tricks on extra spells, up to four per level.
So if you spent every trick from level 10-20 that would get you six extra spells, for a total of ten.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not seeing an open door at all.
This ability changes the mystic Spells from ABCD to XYZ
Now if you Find M you need to figure it out. But the number of spells per day is very clearly in Y. The number of spells you get per day is listed, and where the mystic specifies it gets bonus spells the envoy ability does not.
|
|
The Mechanic Experimental Appratus alternative class feature also has limited spellcasting.
Oooh good catch - I'd forgotten about that. Man, alternate class features that grant spellcasting are just weak across the board, in SF :(
This ability changes the mystic Spells from ABCD to XYZ
Aha, but - you're ignoring that ABCD includes the line "Otherwise, this ability functions as the mystic’s spells class feature." Therefore, ABCD includes this line, from Mystics' spells class feature:
In addition, you receive bonus spells per day if you have a Wisdom modifier of +1 or higher, as shown on Table 4–5: Mystic Bonus Spells—note that you only receive these bonus spells once you can cast spells of that level normally.
(Except of course we sub out Wis for Cha, per the other verbiage, in ABCD.)
Nothing in the Magical Expertise changes, alters, or states you don't get bonus spells, and the line I've quoted makes it pretty clear Magical Expertise functions as mystics'. Spells per day and bonus spells are two different things, both in the Mystics' spells class feature - they're so different, they even get their own separate charts! Separate charts, BNW :D The Magical Expertise write-up also doesn't mention the spells class feature letting you identify spells encoded in a spell gem as a full action. But we take it to mean Magical Expertise inherits the ability from Mystics. Why? Because, again, "otherwise, this ability functions as the mystic’s spells class feature." Magical Expertise also doesn't tell us how to calculate Spell DCs - why? You see the point I'm making.Whether or not it's RAI is, I agree, probably open for debate - but it's a perfectly valid reading of the RAW. And really, the feature is so weak...let the spoony magic-bard have another handful of magic-spoons :D
"Otherwise, this ability functions as the mystic’s spells class feature." Therefore, ABCD includes this line, from Mystics' spells class feature:
Not remotely. And specifically pointed out. I do not like the accusation that I am ignoring something while you can see I am blatantly addressing it.
Not agreeing with is NOT ignoring.
Otherwise means "things not listed". The number of spells you get per day IS listed.
Nothing in the Magical Expertise changes, alters, or states you don't get bonus spells,
It does. When it states that you get one spell, that replaces the mystics you get three spells plus one for your wisdom mod.
The charts are separate because they HAVE to be. The class feature is not. One mystic class feature text uses 2 charts. The envoy ability replaces the text that refers to both charts.
(Except of course we sub out Wis for Cha, per the other verbiage, in ABCD.)
Ok, lets do that
You can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Your number of spells per day is given on Table 4–4: Mystic. In addition, you receive bonus spells per day if you have a Wisdom Charisma modifier of +1 or higher, as shown on Table 4–5: Mystic Bonus spells—note that you only receive these bonus spells once you can cast spells of that level normally. You can also cast 0-level spells. These spells are cast like any other spell, but there is no limit to how many 0-level spells you can cast each day.
Then replace that with
Unlike a mystic, your selection of spells and spells per day is extremely limited. You begin play knowing one 0-level mystic spell, and you can cast your 0-level spells three times per day. At 5th level, you learn one 1st-level mystic spell and can cast it once per day. At 9th level, you learn one 2nd-level mystic spell and can cast it once per day. At 13th level, you learn one 3rd-level mystic spell and can cast it once per day. At 17th level, you learn one 4th-level mystic spell and can cast it once per day. Otherwise, this ability functions as the mystic’s spells class feature, including the ability to decipher magical inscriptions.
So the fact that you crossed out wisdom and wrote in charisma is irrelevant because you crossed out the whole thing and wrote in something else. Note that the section you want to leave in about bonus spells is in between two clauses that are definitely changed, the number of spells and how cantrips work.
Most of the envoy replacement stuff IS pretty bad. If you want to homebrew them to be better, do it, But as for what the rule is this is almost a math problem level of no.
|
|
Oh, I think I see where our reasonings differ. It comes down to if "spells per day" and "bonus spells per day" are the same thing or not. You're argument assumes they are, in which case your interpretation makes sense:
Magical Expertise gives new rules for calculating spells per day (which includes bonus spells per day) and therefore bonus spells per day aren't included in the Otherwise... clause, and therefore not included in Magical Expertise.
I'm arguing they aren't, in which case my interpretation makes sense:
Magical Expertise gives new rules for calculating spells per day but says nothing about bonus spells per day, therefore bonus spells per day are included in the Otherwise... clause, and therefore are included in Magical Expertise.
(My argument has nothing to do with subbing Cha for Wis as a validation; that's just pointed out for completeness.)
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It doesn't matter if they're the same thing or not.
"Cast once per day" is not "Cast once per day plus your relevant modifier" . So when the mystics "cast x times per day plus wisdom modifier" where x is determined by the chart is replaced with "cast once per day" what you're left with is "Cast once per day". You would need to decouple the charts from the rest of the paragraph AND leave the middle section in.
If *IkcthhsSSCRReeeeeech!* starts with 10 power converters and he gives you 1, how many power converters do you have? 1.
If he starts with 10 power converters plus 1 for every 15 credits in his pocket and he gives you 1 how many do you have? 1.
If he starts with 10 plus one for every 5 credits his aunt gave him and he gives you 1 how many do you have? 1.
The value from the two charts isn't the same but they've both been replaced by a new value.
|
|
It doesn't matter if they're the same thing or not.
...it absolutely does. One way supports your argument. The other way supports mine. You can't just say "the difference between a thesis and its antithesis doesn't matter, but here's more support for why mine is right" :D
That said, this is getting down a level of semantics and hair splitting that isn't really going to settle anything; i.e. "what is the semiotic definition of an individual component of a class feature, anyways?", and so on. I don't think either of us is going to convince the other, so...I'mma check outta the thread. Who knows, maybe the FAQ button actually still works and we'll get a definite answer :D Always a pleasure, Mr. Wolf.
It doesn't matter if they're the same thing or not....it absolutely does. One way supports your argument. The other way supports mine.
No. One way would disprove the idea twice, the other way would only disprove it once. Either way it's toast.
You can't just say "the difference between a thesis and its antithesis doesn't matter, but here's more support for why mine is right"
It's entirely possible to be wrong for multiple reasons.
You're arguing that the solidly colored ball is fine.
The ball is solid
The ball is striped
The ball was eaten by an Otyugh
Being eaten by the Otyugh makes whether it was a solid or stripe irrelevant.
There are two points of failure on your argument that both have to go your way. The number of spells per day you get per day from your class has to be a completely separate entity from the number of spells you get from your stat, AND that part needs to not be superseded by the envoy ability anyway. Said envoy ability replaced parts at the begining and end of the same paragraph, so I don't see why the expectation is that the middle survived.
Besides it's not specifically disproven I really don't see a positve argument FOR the idea.
We don't need to parse the language because it's entirely obvious from the nanocyte and mechanic caster options, as well as the design philosophy overall, that Paizo never would have contemplated giving more than a smidgeon of casting and only meager expansions by investing yet more precious class features. No way in hell do you get to double or more your spell slots just because you didn't tank your key attribute score.
A nearly infallible guide to rules interpretation for any ambiguous Paizo class abilities in PF2 and SF:
Is option A cool and powerful and makes the option seem worth taking?
Is option B kind of lame and meager and only a dedicated role player or fringe build would seriously consider it?
It's always option B.
"But what if--"
Option B.
"One developer said--"
B.
"I don't think the language is actually that ambiguous, they would have had to have made a pretty big editing/develping error for B to be the intent."
You hear that loud buzzing noise? It's a whole lot of bees.
"You can cast your lower-level spells known using your higher-level spell slots, and you can cast variable-level spells you know using any level of spell slot you have available."
So, due to that line I am falling into the camp that they gain bonus spells per day.
I do not see any connection between those two ideas at all. If anything, if they had actual spell slots like a caster that wouldn't need to be said.
If they'd wanted to go this route they could have said "instead of the number of spells on chart 7b...."
|
|
Huh, I see this has gone on to be fairly firmly debated. I admittedly am not sure I can read all this on one run, but as to the current point, I am fairly sure that spells per day and spell slots are literally the same thing.
From the Core Rulebook, page 330
'Some of the rules in this chapter make reference to spell slots. The number of spell slots of any given level that you have is equal to the number of spells of that level that you can cast each day (for details about exactly when you regain your daily spell slots, see Regaining Daily-Use Abilities and Spells on page 262).
When the rules say you must have an available spell slot, it means that you can’t have cast all of your spells per day of that level. When the rules say that you lose a spell slot or the spell fails, that means that you have expended one of the total number of spells of that level that you can cast per day.'
It may be worth noting, that this seems like it could be read as if you can cast level 0 spells only a limited number of times, rather than unlimited like most casters, you have actual level 0 spell slots.
But I fear I'm likely retreading old ground in anycase.