Ok, I'm bad at this. Anyone got any build advice for making standard CR3 wights threatening to an APL9 party? I'm looking to get the generic wight up to about CR6-7, then build combats with 2 or more of these creatures in the mix. I'll also be sprinkling in some demons and the environment is a dungeon below a barrow mound, so I'll have to figure a way to factor that in as well.
Bottom line is that just adding enough HD to the standard Wight would make the monster LAST longer, but not really add anything to the combat. I'm not looking to just brute up the wights. Instead I'm looking for ways to maybe give them a Touch attack or to target Will saves, or other more interesting choices.
Also, I'm not looking to TPK the party. An "average" fight would be CR9, so if I made the wights CR6 I'd be making a combat involving 3 of these creatures. If I really WANT to destroy this party I'll throw in a single Coloxus demon and call it a day. No, I just want a CR6-7 monster that actually delivers some measure of threat to this party.
Thing is, the more I scour the boards the more I realize how much I don't know. Would grappling be a good strategy? How about levels of Magus along with Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack? Considering wights start with a high Cha, is there a 3-level Oracle or Sorcerer build that might help? Or, am I overthinking and there's a Simple template out there I should consider?
I'd just toss three levels of Overwhelming Soul Kineticist (Void) on the Wights. That will give them a decent 2d6+X amount of negative energy damage they can do at range, plus whatever interesting wild talents/infusions you want to give them.
You can do some clever stuff with custom made wights at CR6.
Bumping for any last suggestions; game session is this weekend. DO, I'll consider the kineticist levels; this is one of MANY classes I've never even glanced at yet. Thanks for the suggestion!
I use this calculator to do stuff like this. If you just use standard CR3 Wights with no templates or additional levels, you'd need 8 Wights to make it a CR9 encounter. Or you can buff them up a few levels like Deathless One is talking about, and then you'd need 3 of those custom Wights (@CR6) to make a CR9 fight. You could even go 2 Custom Wights @CR6 + 4 Wights @CR3 = CR9 encounter.
Bumping for any last suggestions; game session is this weekend. DO, I'll consider the kineticist levels; this is one of MANY classes I've never even glanced at yet. Thanks for the suggestion!
Oof. Yeah, if you haven't glanced at the Kineticst, don't even try to implement my suggestion. You are better off just adding some spells to them as custom spell-like abilities and running with that. Lots of people have a bit trouble fully grasping the kineticsts mechanics at first.
Use Carin Wights and add 2 levels of fighter. In addition to boosting up their BAB, Saves and HP it also gives them 3 extra feats plus armor and shield proficiencies. Equip them with at least a breastplate, shield and a masterwork longsword. For the extra feats give them Weapon focus long sword, precise strike and outflank.
When attacking with their swords they have a +10 to hit and do 1d8+3 points of damage plus energy drain. They have an AC of 27 and around 56 HP. If they manage to flank a party member their bonus to hit goes up to +14 and they add an extra +1d6 damage from precise strike. 8 of these would make a CR 12 challenge, but you can adjust that depending on how tough you want the encounter to be.
Carin Wights are Lawful Evil with an INT of 15 and a WIS of 17. This means they will be using tactics against the party. They will also probably try and attack when the situation favors them. Used properly this should be a really tough encounter.
How did you get to 27 AC? Standard Cairn Wight is wearing studded leather with a 20 AC (Armor +3, Dex +3, Natural +4). So we toss in breastplate and a heavy wooden shield for 25, no? (Armor +6, Dex +3, Natural +4, Shield +2). Are you saying both armor and shield are also +1?
2 levels of fighter gives them +3 Fort. Undead don't make Fort saves except in rare instances. The boost to their saves would be negligible, not adding much to the combat. This is offset by the high AC for CR6, but then offset again by low HP for such a CR (avg CR6 foes are supposed to have a 19 AC and 70 HP; these cairn wights flip that, having a 25 AC but only 56 HP).
Another thing I considered, for "fodder" type wights, was a standard wight with 2 levels of Adept, 1 level of Warrior. They take a feat to trade out their familiar for 2 Channel Negative Energy/day, and as a GM I give them Inflict Light Wounds instead of Cure Light Wounds as a L1 spell. These wights would only be CR 4 threats but could channel 1d6 negative energy to a small area (save DC 14 for half) or use a Touch attack +6 to deal 1d8+2 damage. They'd also be avail to Bless larger groups of wights and just generally deliver Aid Another.
This upgrade would also give them armor and shield proficiencies, so giving THEM breastplate and heavy wooden shield would be +8 to their standard AC. Their HP would jump to 47 with their Will save boosting to +7. Giving them masterwork longswords would mean melee +6 (1d8 +1 plus Energy Drain).
These wights are not necessarily devastating individually, but at 47 HP and AC 23 each they'd last more than a round each. This gives them the chance to survive first contact with the frontline of the party.
And finally... scrolls.
These minion types would have scrolls on them, means to buff their "superiors" or provide Concealment. A CR 5 brute wight suddenly gaining a +4 to Str or Aid might be nice. The minions could also buy themselves some time to wear down PC resources through a scroll of Mirror Image. Heck, since they KNOW the party is coming and their spies have witnessed repeated Fire spells from the wizard, just having scrolls of Resist Energy (Fire) around could be helpful.
Of course, if the CR4 wight spellcasters don't get the chance to use these scrolls the PCs will be able to gain them as treasure, but I don't think this is going to be WBL breaking.
Normal Wights have a +4 natural armor bonus. Carin Wights adds the advanced template which gives them an additional +2 natural armor bonus for a total of +6. So, their AC is 10 +6(Breastplate) +2(Heavy Shield) +6(Natural Armor) +3 (DEX) for a total of 27 AC. The advanced template also gives them +4 to all stats. You are right about the save bonus, but they will be getting +2 to all saves due to the increased stats.
What makes these Wights deadly is their tactics. If all you do is have them line up and attack the party, they are not that tough. If they manage to surround a target, they just became a lot more dangerous.
The reason I went with fighter was the extra feats. Adding weapon focus boosts their chance to hit which increases the chance of them to get energy drain. The teamwork feats allow them to really become dangerous. Outflank not only increases the flanking bonus it also means that if your target is flanked and one of them gets a critical hit any of the wights that are flanking get an AoO with the +4 bonus to hit and do an extra 1d6 damage. If you want to make them even more dangerous switch their weapon to scimitar and trade precise strike for combat reflexes. That may make them a little too dangerous and could easily lead to a TPK if there are enough of them.
Let’s say that three of them manage to flank a party member. Each one gets one attack and if any of them get a critical hit all of the others get an AoO. That means the target could be hit as many as 6 times and energy drained each time. If they have combat reflexes a single critical hit can set off a chain reaction and the target could get hit by as many as 12 attacks.
Give your Wight a partner... like a Shadow aspiring to be a Necromancer ... give the Shadow six levels of Oracle [Bones Mystery] with the Bleeding Wounds Revelation so its Incorporeal Touch does 1d6 Strength Damage +2 bleeding damages.
Things that have the Create Spawn ability are the best... add innocent cannon fodder to the equation as collateral damage/potentially turning into new enemies... so have civilians, NPC's, commoners and $#!+, an orphanage or maternity ward or something that will otherwise provide the proper "motivation"... don't let the party fight the Wight anywhere favorable to the party. Make them work to keep the Wight (and/or Shadow) from turning an entire town into spawn... which can create their own spawn... which can create an exponentially expanding Undead crisis if left unchecked.
So quick follow up: the game last night went ok, not great but not the usual boring combat either. The dungeon I'm using proved big enough that this quest is going to bleed into another session so I'm going to still mine this thread for your great suggestions.
What I ended up with was taking a standard wight and adding NPC levels. I used 3pp material for one of the 2 NPC classes, called an Adept (Sensitive). I also added the Simple: Fiendish template. In the end it was a "Spirit Ridden" Wight - LE Fiendish Undead Adept (Sensitive)4/Warrior 1.
They ended up at 62 HP and some minor self-buff spells along with the ridiculously effective Mind Thrust I spell. The wights had plenty of defenses besides their normal ones; DR 5/Good, Resist Cold, Fire 10, SR 11, and a 24 AC (Armor +6, Dex +2, Natural +4, Shield +2). Taking a page from DO's book I had them wearing mwk breastplate, carrying mwk heavy wooden shields.
Offensively I gave them +1 longswords and standard longbows, along with their spells. The wights channel Champion spirits with their Channel Spirit feat and for ease of use I just ruled that anytime the PCs encounter the creatures, they are still gaining the benefits of that spirit. For feats I added Weapon Focus Longsword, Outflank and Precise strike, again harkening to Deathless upthread. Unfortunately the 2 I used never got a chance to get into a flank.
Theoretically these guys are capable in a flank while using Smite Good of Melee +1 Longsword +17/+12 (1d8+14 plus 1d6 Precision, Energy Drain). I figured all of this plus their defenses was enough for CR 6.
Here's the thing though; I'm absolute garbage with tactics.
warning, wall o text:
I had a fight in a multi-level chamber, 2 Brute Wights above that I gave throw anything as a bonus feat to and then had them throwing heavy stones down at the PCs while to either side of the party I had some Imperial Ghouls just to annoy the PCs in melee.
Into this mix, I had 2 of my "Spirit Ridden" wights come down the tunnel from behind on round 2 of the fight. I figured I had a good strategy; the brute wights hold the high ground which is where the other exit was from this chamber, the ghouls are fodder to keep the PCs in place, and the spirit ridden wights bringing up the rear would first engage from range and then move into melee to flank when given the chance.
The ghouls though were so weak that 3 of the six got literally just pinned down and did nothing against the AC 30 war bull mount of the paladin. The creature has Trample that deals 1d8+11 damage, has a Ref save of 19, or enemies can take full damage and try an AoO, again, at AC 30. The other 3 ghouls, since they had no resistance to Fire were short work for the fire wizard.
The 3 melee types then spent all their attention on the spirit ridden. Anyone that tries telling you rogues don't get SA often enough in fights should've seen my game last night: round 2, after the spirit ridden delivered 2 mind thrust spells to damage the monk, the scout rogue moves 10'; SA. R2 the u-monk grapples a spirit ridden with Greater Grapple, pins the same round, the rogue delivers 2 more SA. R3 monk uses free action, releases grapple, 5' step to flank with rogue, flurries, deals minor damage, rogue delivers another SA attack finishing one of the wights.
While all that's going on the paladin and his cleric cohort move in on the other spirit ridden. The paladin plants himself so the wight couldn't flank with his buddy and proceeds to just wail on the undead with a +1 Undead Bane longsword. The paladin took some minor damage but his cohort took nothing and contributed damage using, of all things, Align Weapon on a sling and 3 shots he had from a previously cast Magic Stone spell.
Like, are you kidding? I built what I thought were decent cooperative monsters with high defenses and they didn't even get to use the best of their abilities.
I'll tell you what I'm doing next; deeper in the dungeon I'm taking the fiendish ghoul warrior 5 minions I made and turning them into Ghoul Adept 4/Warrior 1 minions. Their ONLY job is to keep putting Invisibility on spirt ridden wights so that these things can sneak up invisible and START a round while flanking.
LE Medium fiendish undead adept (sensitive)4/warrior 1
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +11
DEFENSE
AC 24, touch 12, flat-footed 20 (+6 Armor, +2 Dex, +4 natural, +2 Shield)
hp 62 (4d8, 4d6, 1d10+25)
Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +10
Defensive Abilities DR 5/good, Resist cold, fire 10, SR 11, undead traits
Weaknesses resurrection vulnerability
OFFENSE
Speed 20 ft.
Melee +1 longsword +10/+5 (1d8+5 plus energy drain), slam +8/+3 (1d4+5 plus energy drain)
Range mwk longbow +9/+4 (1d8), Telekinetic Projectile +9 (1d6)
Special Attacks create spawn, energy drain (1 level, DC 15)
SPELLS (Concentration +7, CL 4)
Level 0: Guidance, Telekinetic Projectile, Virtue
Level 1: Chill Touch, Mind Thrust I (DC 14 Will, 4d6 or half), Protection from Good
Level 3: False Life
STATISTICS
Str 12, Dex 14, Con —, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 16
Base Atk +6; CMB +7; CMD 19
Feats Blind-Fight, Channel Spirit, Outflank, Precise Strike, Skill Focus (Perception), Spirit Ridden, Weapon Focus: Longsword
Skills Intimidate +14, Knowledge (religion) +12, Perception +16, Stealth +19; Racial Modifier +8 Stealth
Languages Common
SQ create spawn
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Create Spawn (Su)
Any humanoid creature that is slain by a wight becomes a wight itself in only 1d4 rounds. Spawn so created are less powerful than typical wights, and suffer a –2 penalty on all d20 rolls and checks, as well as –2 hp per HD. Spawn are under the command of the wight that created them and remain enslaved until its death, at which point they lose their spawn penalties and become full-fledged and free-willed wights. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life.
Resurrection Vulnerability (Su)
A raise dead or similar spell cast on a wight destroys it (Will negates). Using the spell in this way does not require a material component.
Smite Good (Su)
Once per day, the fiendish creature may smite a good-aligned creature. As a swift action, the creature chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is good, the creature adds its Charisma bonus (if any) to attack rolls and gains a damage bonus equal to its HD against that foe. This effect persists until the target is dead or the creature rests.
Spirit Ridden (Su)
At 1st level, a sensitive gains Spirit Ridden as a bonus feat. She can use this one additional time per day at 7th level and every 6 levels thereafter, but can only benefit from one spirit at a time.
Spirit Shield (Su)
At 3rd level, a sensitive gains a +1 bonus to AC (including touch AC), CMD and saving throws against the attacks and abilities of haunts, ethereal and incorporeal creatures, and against possession attempts. This increases by 1 at 6th level and every 3 levels thereafter.
Spirit Channel (Su)
At 4th level, a sensitive gains Spirit Channel as a bonus feat. She can only activate this ability as part of performing the séance for Spirit Ridden. After she uses this ability, instead of yielding control of her body, she suffers 2 points of burn (as the kineticist class feature). At 10th and 16th level, she learns to channel another type of spirit.
Treasure: +1 longsword, longbow, mwk breastplate armor, mwk heavy wooden shield, Cloak of Resistance +1, x2 scrolls: Chill Touch, x1 scroll: Spectral Hand, x2 scrolls: Mindshock, 200 GP worth of jewelry
Remember Wrights are intelligent undeads. Don’t play them like zombies. They are on their home turf, I gather? So take maximum advantage of the dungeon and that they now know of the PC’s capabilities.
Isolate the paladin. Perhaps after a narrow corridor, where he needs to unmount, then kollaps the ceiling. Attack the squishes when they try to free the paladin. Grapple the wizard (Brawler or Monk levels on the Wright)
Or use longspears through holes in the Wall.
Remember that disarm is effective against a paladin with a undead bane longsword. CMD is not affected by his full plate.
