Attack roll penalty clarification


Rules Discussion


Prone wording
> You're lying on the ground. You are flat-footed and take a –2 circumstance penalty to attack rolls.

MAP wording
> The second time you use an attack action during your turn, you take a –5 penalty to your attack roll. The third time you attack, and on any subsequent attacks, you take a –10 penalty to your attack roll.

Strike wording
> Roll the attack roll for the weapon or unarmed attack you are using

Shove wording
> Attempt an Athletics check against your target's Fortitude DC.

https://youtu.be/__JQKeJUxSU
by this video Mark Seifter told that prone penalty does not apply to Shove action because this is NOT attack roll but skill check. And Prone penalty worded same as MAP.

So does this mean that Shove and other athletic actions increase MAP but not apply that penalty to itself?

You also anyway could ignore MAP by using assurance to those actions so I think this is not broken (and more fun)


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Erfar wrote:

https://youtu.be/__JQKeJUxSU

by this video Mark Seifter told that prone penalty does not apply to Shove action because this is NOT attack roll but skill check. And Prone penalty worded same as MAP.

So does this mean that Shove and other athletic actions increase MAP but not apply that penalty to itself?

No, the Attack trait clearly says that MAP applies. Even though it is a skill check, not an attack roll.

Skill check actions that don't have the Attack trait are not attack rolls and they are not attacks that use MAP.

And if a game dev says something on a Youtube video that does not follow the printed rules, the printed rules take precedence.

Erfar wrote:
You also anyway could ignore MAP by using assurance to those actions so I think this is not broken (and more fun)

Assurance does remove all penalties including MAP. It works reasonably well against lower level enemies and enemies with a bad save against the maneuver.

Shadow Lodge

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Per the FAQ:

Attack Rolls wrote:

...

Page 446: Attack Rolls. There was some confusion as to whether skill checks with the attack trait (such as Grapple or Trip) are also attack rolls at the same time. They are not. To make this clear, add this sentence to the beginning of the definition of attack roll "When you use a Strike action or make a spell attack, you attempt a check called an attack roll."

To clarify the different rules elements involved:

An attack is any check that has the attack trait. It applies and increases the multiple attack penalty.

An attack roll is one of the core types of checks in the game (along with saving throws, skill checks, and Perception checks). They are used for Strikes and spell attacks, and traditionally target Armor Class.

Some skill actions have the attack trait, specifically Athletics actions such as Grapple and Trip. You still make a skill check with these skills, not an attack roll.

The multiple attack penalty applies on those skill actions as well. As it says later on in the definition of attack roll "Striking multiple times in a turn has diminishing returns. The multiple attack penalty (detailed on page 446) applies to each attack after the first, whether those attacks are Strikes, special attacks like the Grapple action of the Athletics skill, or spell attack rolls." There is inaccurate language in the Multiple Attack Penalty section implying it applies only to attack rolls that will be receiving errata.


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As Taja the Barbarian cited, Athletics Actions like shove, trip, grapple, and disarm are Attacks which use Athletics Skill Checks rather than Attack Rolls. Mark made the same point in the video.

Mark is, of course, correct that the penalty for the Prone condition doesn't apply to Athletics Attacks.

CRB, p. 621 wrote:

Prone

You’re lying on the ground. You are flat-footed and take a –2 circumstance penalty to attack rolls.

Since Athletics Attacks don't use Attack Rolls, this penalty doesn't apply.

Mark didn't address the issue of MAP in the video, but the quote from Taja the Barbarian did. You can also see from the definition of MAP that it refers to Attacks rather than Attack Rolls.

CRB, p. 634 wrote:
multiple attack penalty You take this penalty on all attacks after the first on your turn. This is a –5 penalty on your second attack and –10 on all subsequent attacks (or –4 and –8 if your weapon or unarmed attack has the agile trait). 446

So MAP applies to all Attacks – Strikes, Athletics Attacks, and Spell Attacks – equally.

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