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Wild Shape having Somatic components, it will really depend on how are the bonds. If it's just manacles, it should work fine. If you are completely tied up and unable to move, you won't be able to cast the spell.
Also, your inventory is supposed to mesh with you, so the GM can rule that once you get back to human form you still wear the manacles. It's a bit nasty but it's a very valid interpretation.
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There aren't any rules specifically addressing the wildshape effecting an escape if successful, but I don't see any sound reason that they couldn't.
However, remember that Wildshape has Verbal components (hard to use while gagged) and Somatic components (Somatic components have the Manipulate trait and cannot be used while Restrained). If they aren't tied securely enough for the Restrained condition to be appropriate, I'd direct you to the manacles, which mention that they impose a DC 5 flat-check for manipulate actions, but that the DC may increase, depending on just how tightly the subject is bound.
Yeah, capturing PCs is rather difficult. The game doesn't really support options for that very well. If it is important to the plot, you may want to discuss it above board with the other players first.
Some classes are easier to capture than others. Spellcasters being some of the most difficult. Some martial characters can have their weapons and armor confiscated. Then they won't be as able to take on the guards without their equipment. Doesn't work so well for martial characters that use unarmed attacks. Monk and Animal Instinct Barbarian especially, but there are quite a few ancestry choices that give decent unarmed attacks for at least lower levels of play.
But spellcasters basically always have their spells and are ready to throw down.
Keep them unconscious. No more daily preparations.
Hmm... Technically true.
Not entirely sure how to do that in the rules. Maybe drugs? I haven't looked through them much. Keeping them at 0 HP and stable would work, I suppose. Though you would have to have someone come in and beat them back down to 0 HP every morning.
Also, this seems really boring to the players to have to play through. I would expect to time-skip through it.
When you can prevent them from using components by restraining and gagging them, trying to keep them unconscious seems excessive and unnecessary. A sorcerer with the Blood Component Substitution feat is pretty much the only caster that has an easy way around all of that.
Yeah.
And still, unless the point is to get into a creativity war with your players, I would still recommend talking above board with them that the confinement is necessary to the plot and then time-skipping through the actual confinement scene. Jump straight to the rescue or heroic escape scene instead.
Yeah.
And still, unless the point is to get into a creativity war with your players, I would still recommend talking above board with them that the confinement is necessary to the plot and then time-skipping through the actual confinement scene. Jump straight to the rescue or heroic escape scene instead.
Remember, this kind of question commonly goes in the other direction, too, with players looking to imprison someone or something. (It might even be more common in that direction, since the player's can't just say "I shall create a plot-device anti-mage cell", while GMs don't need an existing mechanic to reference.)
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Remember, this kind of question commonly goes in the other direction, too, with players looking to imprison someone or something. (It might even be more common in that direction, since the player's can't just say "I shall create a plot-device anti-mage cell", while GMs don't need an existing mechanic to reference.)Yeah.
And still, unless the point is to get into a creativity war with your players, I would still recommend talking above board with them that the confinement is necessary to the plot and then time-skipping through the actual confinement scene. Jump straight to the rescue or heroic escape scene instead.
Yes. And the GM has a great amount of influence over how murderish the PCs become as a result of how this is handled.
Personally I like less murdering heroes. So I tend to have a social contract that enemies that surrender or are defeated stay that way. Capturing, interrogating for information, and releasing a minion then works. Otherwise the players are just going to kill the minion and hope/expect that there will be written instructions from the boss somewhere on the corpse.
Meh. That is what Talking Corpse is for.
Gagging adventurers is fairly standard, w/ the assumption you'll gag all the casters that way. Of course, PCs have options (if they took them) that get around this though NPCs seldom do.
One classic module had the guards keep casters from resting. That would translate in PF2 to disrupting their daily preparation which would mean the guards would have to harass the prisoners every 10 minutes.
They retained a few weaker spells, which back in the day before Cantrips just wouldn't suffice, but they were about to embark on a "scant resources" arc where yes, a Monk or Animal Instinct Barbarian would've totally skewed the balance. In that story the PCs had either been captured by "plot gas", where it had been an invincible trap w/ sleeping gas that got them or if the DM (like I said, classic) wished to the PCs could play out the combat vs. many extreme foes (after the attrition of a dungeon gauntlet) w/ the expectation that the PCs get killed then Raised so they could be interrogated. Bold move, yet we're talking the major villains of a long arc.
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When the PCs capture an NPC, I don't make the NPC escape without external help. Sometimes, I may do it out of a plot choice or if the PCs have forgotten something important, but I prefer to keep that rare. I consider that the PCs know how to contain a same level enemy.
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Sigh. I hate to be a spoil sport but technically a wildshaped creature can't Escape. Because Escape action has the attack trait and you can't use any attacks other than the ones specified. So a wildshaped creature can't escape at all.
Yes its a really dumb rule that everyone does and should ignore but it is there.
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Sigh. I hate to be a spoil sport but technically a wildshaped creature can't Escape. Because Escape action has the attack trait and you can't use any attacks other than the ones specified. So a wildshaped creature can't escape at all.
Yes its a really dumb rule that everyone does and should ignore but it is there.
I don't think the OP question was about using Escape but just to turn into a mouse and just move away unimpeded.
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Sigh. I hate to be a spoil sport but technically a wildshaped creature can't Escape. Because Escape action has the attack trait and you can't use any attacks other than the ones specified. So a wildshaped creature can't escape at all.
Yes its a really dumb rule that everyone does and should ignore but it is there.
Even if that absurdly legalistic reading hadn't always been so clearly not what the rule is supposed to mean as to not merit mention, Pest Form doesn't have the text that you're talking about. It also does not reference Animal Form, which does have that line, like later Form spells do.
Even if that absurdly legalistic reading hadn't always been so clearly not what the rule is supposed to mean as to not merit mention, Pest Form doesn't have the text that you're talking about. It also does not reference Animal Form, which does have that line, like later Form spells do.Sigh. I hate to be a spoil sport but technically a wildshaped creature can't Escape. Because Escape action has the attack trait and you can't use any attacks other than the ones specified. So a wildshaped creature can't escape at all.
Yes its a really dumb rule that everyone does and should ignore but it is there.
I have made ALL those points many times myself in the forums.
But I do object to you calling the plain black and white reading of a rule absurdly legalistic.
I have several players in my groups that have a very literal black and white way of seeing the world. That is just their personality, it always has been. They can't easily look at the world any other way. I still want to play with these people.
The rules are very clear. Paizo please fix it to make the game accessible to everyone.
The Polymorph trait (which Pest Form does have, as does Shrink) says that your gear is absorbed into your new form and continues to function. Could shackles or restraints be considered gear that you are wearing (even if you are wearing it non-voluntarily)? And therefore the function of that gear - preventing you from moving or leaving - would still be in effect.
The Polymorph trait (which Pest Form does have, as does Shrink) says that your gear is absorbed into your new form and continues to function. Could shackles or restraints be considered gear that you are wearing (even if you are wearing it non-voluntarily)? And therefore the function of that gear - preventing you from moving or leaving - would still be in effect.
Running with your example above:
If someone stuffed you in a barrel, are you wearing the barrel?
If someone stuffed only your top half in a barrel, are you wearing the barrel?
If you polymorph in both examples above would the barrel transform with you since your "technically" wearing it?
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I'd say "no" to the manacles/barrel being treated as worn. It seems to me that rules talking about items continuing to function is only in regards to persistent magical items, such as a bracelet of dashing's Acrobatics bonus or a ring of energy resistance's energy resistance.
It's also a slippery slope. Does the dwelling you reside in count as "worn?" If not, why not? It's not very different from being inside a large barrel or chest. If a mundane barrel continues functioning while "worn" does it not continue to grant you total cover when absorbed?
No. Best to avoid that can of worms entirely.
Allowing someone to escape from manacles in this fashion is also very cool and thematic. I imagine most players would love it! It wasn't your intention to keep the PCs locked up forever and killing the campaign anyways, was it? So why not let them escape in a cool manner?
If it's an NPC that is escaping from the PCs, then it remains a cool trick that might lead to a most enjoyable chase or other encounter, as well as an interesting learning experience for the PCs.
Why would anyone want to stop all that awesome?
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Meh. That is what Talking Corpse is for.
Reminding me again of how great the rarity system is :)
Meh. That is what Talking Corpse is for.Reminding me again of how great the rarity system is :)
It's a PC who has been captured (along with his companions). I appreciate all the input from the community. The most compelling arguments that I have heard are that transformation takes both verbal and somatic components and somatic components specifically state that you cannot execute the proper motions while bound.
It isn't my intention to end the campaign by allowing the players to languish in captivity, however I think there should be more to escape than: "mouseform: welcome to the Druid show this session where you will watch the Druid do interesting things while you are tied up."
I hope to leverage some narrative/skill-based drama where the players need to utilize a variety of resources to escape.
Thank everyone for the discussion. It's very very helpful.
Dunno. To me having the one hero possessing the appropriate special ability do his thing seems like a well established "villain mistake" trope, a good opportunity for both character and player to shine and as such entirely not cheesy or cheating. I mean, if the situation were to happen in a comic you usually would not mind Mr. Fantastic, Ant-Man or Vision using their powers to easily escape their bonds and then start freeing the rest of the team, or would you?
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It would be a good first step. But it shouldn't be the only step. It also shouldn't be that the Druid escapes, then immediately gets into battle while everyone else is still bound - and would therefore have to solo at least that battle.
The other PCs could remain alive due to their value as barter, hostages, etc. Killing them cannot be taken back, and why waste a resource that might help you get info from the target PC?
(The error of underestimation seems viable, given the villain did capture them.)
And I agree, a villain with both personal experience w/ the wondrous and specific experience w/ the PCs' wondrous abilities should very well counter those abilities. I'd say this goes for any standard stuff too, like Dimension Door.
That still could leave room for unexpected abilities, i.e. an armor-less Tony Stark freed himself from Skrulls (I believe, maybe different aliens) using martial arts he'd picked up from Captain America (and which he'd explicitly spent on-screen time training in, so this wasn't some ad hoc solution). In RPGs that could translate to the villain stifling the caster's magic, not accounting for an investment into Thievery (and lots of patience). The same goes for the Rogue, who might get the best of manacles and no gag, yet might have hidden magic abilities. Breadth FTW.
And of course one of the tried and true methods of escape is persuasion, where a villain might be overestimating the loyalty of their minions or not, depending on paranoia level. Extreme paranoia helps nobody, neither those playing out the narrative nor characters within the narrative. And it likely lowers morale to where the guards might want to persuade the PCs to take them along! (Self-fulfilling paranoia...) Plus other prisoners can act as resources...or spies which perhaps savvy PCs can ferret out and feed false info to in order to gain some traction.
Lots of possibilities, though not so easy to whip up at the table.