Spiderman: No way home thread 2.0

[CapeCodRPGer]

Saw it opening night. I HATED what they did. Major spoilers below.

Spoiler:

I thought the whole thing was a big giant retcon. Now no one remembers Him, at all. Now they can do the same stories they been doing. Instead of coming up with something original. Have MJ fall back in love with Him, find out he is Spiderman, everything. Three movies worth of character development just flushed down the toilet. So what's the point of investing in character arcs if at any point they can just erase it like nothing happened to them?
I felt it was like a DM at a TTRPG say "ok, the last 3 sessions didn't happen. Restarting the campaign, again."
Also, no one remembers Him. Don't Ned and MJ have pics and texts on their phones? Wouldn't they be asking who that person is? Plus all the physical records of Spidey. Aunt May dies. But Aunt May would have had some kind of insurance or will for Peter. No way he'd be hard up for money and have to go live in a crappy apartment.

[captain yesterday]

I personally loved it, I thought all the actors brought their best and it was well written and directed.

Ymmv.

[CapeCodRPGer]

I thought every in the movie did a great job. Was great seeing everyone reprise roles. But the ending did'nt work for me at all.

[captain yesterday]

I really liked the end.

It was the decision I would have made in that situation.

[Greylurker]

I admit not 100% thrilled with the back to ZERO set up, however it dose take away all the Stark toys which I felt he was getting a little to dependant on and puts him in a not bad looking homemade suit. Also Broke Peter Parker will need a no-questions asked job at the Daily Bugle, where we have already cast a Betty Brant.

but ARGH always count on Green Goblin to make Spider-man miserable.

plus LMAO at Eddie spending the entire thing drunk in Mexico. It's just very in character for the movie version of him.

[David knott 242]

CapeCodRPGer wrote:

Saw it opening night. I HATED what they did. Major spoilers below.

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

The only way this works is if all physical records of Peter Parker disappear or are corrupted, or if anyone looking at them is unable to remember them afterwards. Something like that would be required to explain the things you cited, as well as the unavailability of his school records and his excellent grades. I think the inability to remember anything about Peter Parker immediately after seeing concrete recorded evidence of his existence is the most likely factor, as destroyed or corrupted records would leave very conspicuous gaps. But even that explanation would leave a location in the city where people closest to where Peter Parker lived would have the severest memory problems.

Of course, one thing that could happen in the next Spiderman movie would be for some people (such as MJ or Dr. Strange) to quickly put certain clues of this nature together and figure out who has disappeared from their memories. It would be boring for them to become reacquainted in the normal way, so my best guess is that those people who were closest to him either figure out the truth quickly or are permanently gone from his life.

[CapeCodRPGer]

I thought it was very lazy what they did. so why should I even care about what happens to the characters now if they can change it at any moment? I feel cheated.

[Thomas Seitz]

Welcome to the fact some times you get the ending you THOUGHT you wanted...but instead the ending you deserved. I think.

All I know is this movie and Hawkeye tie nicely together and MAYBE now we'll get some more Netflix MCU characters back. I DEMAND MY LUKE CAGE DAMMITT!

[TriOmegaZero]

Someone called this the Endgame of Spiderman, which I have to agree with. There was more than a few choices I thought didn't fit together well, but overall it was a good movie.

Edit: Damn, I usually don't agree with the Drinker.

[Quark Blast]

It was a great theater event. Also a great super-spreader event I'll wager.
:D

I don't want to see it again though. I might someday but not gonna plan on it.

[Thomas Seitz]

I might go see it again...just need to see first before I make that decision. Also I only saw Endgame and Infinity War once...so there's that.

[Marc Radle]

Saw the movie last night.

I LOVED IT!!!

I’ll admit I’m not sure yet how I feel about the ending, but overall I absolutely loved it. Easily in the top 5 MCU movies, and easily one of the top 5 superhero movies.

[Thomas Seitz]

Very cool.

[CapeCodRPGer]

What they did here makes me not want to invest in ANY more movies, books, comics or TV shows.

What's the point of watching characters grow and change if they will just take away all that development in the blink of an eye?

"We hope you enjoyed watching these characters learn and grow. Just kidding, we are taking all that away."

Thanks Marvel.

[TriOmegaZero]

Go watch the Critical Drinker’s take. This WAS the character growing and changing after being static for so long.

Strange enough, the entire arc of Spider-Man in the MCU was actually his backstory, rather than Marvel skipping it this time around.

[CapeCodRPGer]

I'm not talking about Peter/ Spiderman. I'm talking

Spoiler:

MJ and Ned getting mind wiped so they can recycle the same old stories they have been doing for almost 50 years. Just throwing away all their character development.

Lazy.

[captain yesterday]

CapeCodRPGer wrote:

What they did here makes me not want to invest in ANY more movies, books, comics or TV shows.

What's the point of watching characters grow and change if they will just take away all that development in the blink of an eye?

"We hope you enjoyed watching these characters learn and grow. Just kidding, we are taking all that away."

Thanks Marvel.

Wow. Sucks to be you, I guess.

[dirtypool]

Spoiler:

I’ve read this hot take all over so I’ll ask - exactly what character growth are we referring to. Ned and Michelle were introduced as one thing and largely remained that thing. We learned more about them and they had experiences through the plot of the films and serving as supporting characters - but how did they grow?

[TriOmegaZero]

CapeCodRPGer wrote:

I'm not talking about Peter/ Spiderman. I'm talking ** spoiler omitted **

Lazy.

I look foward to seeing if they prove you wrong.

[Aberzombie]

I was leery about seeing this in the theater, simple because I wasn’t sure it would be worth the money. After listening to Critical Drinker’s review, however, I’m thinking I might take the kidlets next week.

[Thomas Seitz]

A-zombie, I want to take my family to see it. Mostly because we see a movie before the end of the year/beginning of the year. And it should be this one. (Moreso than King's Man...or the Matrix thingie)

[Damon Griffin]

Near the end of the movie, when the big fractures started appearing, there were white silhouetted figures in the sky. At least two shots of different groups of figures, neither on screen long enough for me to recognize any of them.

Anyone with faster eyes than mine think they spotted someone?

[Thomas Seitz]

Maybe the Beyonders...dunno.

[David knott 242]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

CapeCodRPGer wrote:

I'm not talking about Peter/ Spiderman. I'm talking ** spoiler omitted **

Lazy.

I look foward to seeing if they prove you wrong.

Spoiler:

Doesn't MJ still have a necklace or some other trinket from Peter? It wouldn't take much to maker her start wondering where it came from.

[CapeCodRPGer]

Dirtypool,

Spoiler:

MJ and Ned learned Peter was Spiderman. All three of them grew closer because of it. MJ fell in love with Peter, accepting Peter for who He is. Spiderman and all. That's how they grew. Then they just reset it like none of that happened at all. As far as the necklace, someone else mentioned that for the mind wipes to work, all physical and digital records of Peter would have had to been wiped as well. Since at the end of the movie we see Ned on His phone and He isn't wondering who this strange guy is in pictures or texts, they did that. If I was an actor investing my heart into a character, seeing how the writers had my character grow and change,
only to have it be taken away like that, I'd be pretty upset.

[dirtypool]

spoiler:

That’s not character growth, those are plot points. The only one of the three who had an arc in there where they grew as a person was Peter.

[CapeCodRPGer]

So falling in love with someone isn't character development then? Feelings becoming stronger for someone doesn't change how that character acts towards that person?

[Quark Blast]

Heck no! This is the MCU! Not real life!

:D

[dirtypool]

It isn’t character development if it doesn’t develop the character. If Michele Jones is essentially the same character after revealing her feelings for Peter Parker as she was before then all that has happened is the plot points involving her have advanced.

Aside from the fact that she was an outsider who likes true crime and Peter Parker - what can you tell me about her as a character? How did she grow, beyond simply acting as a tool for Peter’s growth in the narrative? What changes to her were effected by experiencing the events of the first two films going into the third?

[Thomas Seitz]

All I know is character development is that some times you lose and you win...

[Tristan d'Ambrosius]

And just like that #2 Worldwide Box Office. #1 Domestic Box Office.

[Marc Radle]

Woo hoo!

[Tristan d'Ambrosius]

And now Number 1 Worldwide

[Aberzombie]

I’m hoping I’ll be feeling better before the boy goes back to school. I’d really like to take him to see this.

[Thomas Seitz]

I hope I can find the time next week to see it since I'm pet sitting for my neighbor until they get back from Florida on the 2nd...

[captain yesterday]

At some point I'm taking my youngest back for another viewing.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Parts of this movie made no sense to me. Parts of it were just good fun to watch. One part in particular made me cry like a kid. All in all I liked it but I have to say I walked away with more questions than answers. And yeah, the final spell... wouldn't that have erased the character of Peter Parker from every universe the spell touched, following Strange's logic for why the first spell ported in folks from other universes in the first place?

Like... how cruel would that be that in the universes where Peter still has an Aunt May, and he comes to visit and she has NO IDEA who he is? Umm... what?

[Quark Blast]

@Mark

If I were to make a cynical guess, I'd say the Sony/MCU folk are in no way concerned with cogency. Produce something rule-of-cool and let the rough edges spur fan-theories about what it all "really means". Free marketing!
:D

[Thomas Seitz]

I figure that Aunt May will know who Peter is, but doesn't know he's Spider-man. But I could be wrong. Also, there's still Venom 3.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Wasn't there someone called Madame Web in the comics? I looked her up in Wikipedia and it says that in the 90's cartoon she had connections to Spider Man throughout the multiverse. I wonder if they can use her to restore everyone's memories of peter. Also TS, the final spell was worded that everyone would forget Peter's existence. Period. Now whether that's limited to folks that were coming through the rifts or not, the point of the spell is that all of Peter's entire existence would be erased from those people.

Now... think about how utterly heartbreaking that is. Tobey Maguire's Spidey was still "working on" things with MJ. I know the Sony-verse is probably not going to adhere to MCU canon, but what if they did? He goes back to his reality, he's finally got a chance to patch things up with a woman he's had a crush on for decades, a woman that ran from the altar to BE with him... and when he finds her, MJ doesn't even know who he is?

OMG that's horrible! Like, can you imagine what kind of a he!! that would be? You work to reform Doc Ock, you help Norman get back to normal, you send them back to your universe and now your actions have altered time saving your best friend Harry, only so that he has no memory of you at all. None of them do. This ending is one of the darkest we've ever seen in the MCU if you actually stop and think about it.

Thomas Seitz, the whole reason why the first spell got messed up was all the exceptions. The second version was simple, to the point: forget Peter Parker. The spell would have to work across the infinite multiverses by Strange's logic to reverse the negative rifts, so that means ANYWHERE there was a Peter Parker, folks would forget him. That's diabolical.

With everyone shipping every MCU project with Mephisto since WandaVision, if he's been anywhere it was definitely here. This is soul crushing. I really hope I'm overthinking this or that they undo these shenanigans somehow.

[Thomas Seitz]

Eh. I think, Mark the idea that this spell doesn't have some other kind of drawback and/or that a blood relation wouldn't know Peter Parker seems...unlikely.

As for Madame Web, yes she was in the cartoon but she was also in the comics and is kind of one of the many guides Spidey had in his career.

[CapeCodRPGer]

Laziness is the reason they made everyone forget who Parker was. Now they can re tell the same stories they have been telling for literary decades with Peter's friends, ect. Finding out He is Spiderman. Now they don't have to think of anything new to do.

So are they going to mind wipe everyone again when they find out again? Like I said before, no point in watching anything, seeing characters grow and develop if they can just take it away at anytime.

What's the point?

[Rysky]

For enjoyment?

Like, all entertainment.

[TriOmegaZero]

Pretty much. All stories are retellings anyway.

[Marc Radle]

CapeCodRPGer wrote:

Laziness is the reason they made everyone forget who Parker was. Now they can re tell the same stories they have been telling for literary decades with Peter's friends, ect. Finding out He is Spiderman. Now they don't have to think of anything new to do.

So are they going to mind wipe everyone again when they find out again? Like I said before, no point in watching anything, seeing characters grow and develop if they can just take it away at anytime.

What's the point?

Everyone’s entitled to their opinion, and you’ve certainly expressed yours on this topic multiple times.

It wasn’t lazy. It was a pretty clever way to deal with the uncertainty between Marvel and Sony’s unclear future with Spider Man while they were filming. It also allowed Peter to make a really tough choice at the end and do what he thought was right and make a huge sacrifice for the world (and perhaps more importantly, his friends)

Now that Marvel and Sony have apparently signed a new deal for a new trilogy, they may well find a way for Peter to undo some of this and tell Ned and MJ. If they do, I trust Keven Fiege to do it in a cool, interesting, and emotional way.

And before you post again, yes we get it … you hate the ending. :)

[DeathQuaker]

CapeCodRPGer wrote:

Laziness is the reason they made everyone forget who Parker was. Now they can re tell the same stories they have been telling for literary decades with Peter's friends, ect. Finding out He is Spiderman. Now they don't have to think of anything new to do.

So are they going to mind wipe everyone again when they find out again? Like I said before, no point in watching anything, seeing characters grow and develop if they can just take it away at anytime.

What's the point?

The point was to use one of Marvel's most famous, money-making, audience-drawing characters to help introduce the multiverse, since they knew more people around the world would watch Spider-Man than, say, WandaVision or What If? They were also sure to use Dr. Strange to build up an audience for Dr. Strange 2.

And then hit the reset button so that actually, maybe--on the bright side--they could get around to telling a real actual Spider-Man story in a future movie rather than as a plot device/fan service manipulation, and hopefully some good, lasting character development will actually happen.

Mind you, I am in complete agreement with you on the points you've made, but, caveat: I haven't actually watched the movie (I was reading this thread to see what folks thought, good and bad, to help me to decide if I should see it, and the conclusion so far I've taken away is no, I shouldn't, though I'm glad many of you enjoyed the film. I am thoroughly spoiled so I know everything that happens). So anything I say here should be taken with a massive grain of salt. This said, I responded here because what I said above is basically why I didn't want to see this movie; I don't want ties to other movies, I don't want fanservice, I don't want to see people from the Sony movies, and I don't want to see characters make what I see as foolish, selfish decisions for the pure purposes of propelling a plot, not because it makes sense for the character. I want to see a Spider-Man story and when they start making those, I'll watch them.

[Aberzombie]

The boy and I just got back from seeing this, and I thought it was pretty damned good. I’m not sure if I’d say it’s one of my favorite MCU movies, but it definitely kicked some ass.

The performances by Willem Dafoe, Tobey Maguire, and Andrew Garfield were, I thought, pretty exceptional. The storyline was pretty cool. The fight sequences were pretty excellent.

Edit: I am, however, just a little peeved they didn’t try to fit a cameo of Nicholas Hammond in there somewhere.

Edit #2: All in all, a good way to end an otherwise unexceptional year.

[Aberzombie]

One other thing that’s bugging the crap out of me….

In the climactic battle, they showcase silhouettes of other characters being pulled into the MCU from the multiverse. I recognized one silhouette as Rhino (a version closer to the comics than the Andrew Garfield movie), and I think I might have seen Kraven the Hunter (not sure though).

I’d love to see what characters they included there, but haven’t been able to find any info on it. I was hoping something would have been reported by now, but if it was, I couldn’t find it. Hopefully, if they haven’t put that info out yet, they will soon.

[Thomas Seitz]

Not sure it was THAT unexceptional for Marvel, but I will agree the movie side for Marvel was lighter than I expected. But this was/is a good movie.

I am going to TRY to see this...but my brother made a cogent argument about COVID rise...so might have to hold off. Which saddens me...but we'll see if Spidey stays in theaters into February.

[Aberzombie]

Duh!

Can’t believe I didn’t think of this earlier. Just did a search for “No Way Home Easter eggs”. One silhouette was indeed Rhino. The other was (apparently) Scorpion. Cool.

Stoopid brain farts.