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Unmodified Rogue Talents
The rogue talents in this chapter include replacements for all of those in the Core Rulebook, along with selected revised rogue talents from other sources. The following rogue talents can be used without modification
The modified rogue talents are part of the Unchained Rogue class, so, if you don't use the unchained version of the rogue you should use the normal version of the talents.
Personally, I don't see a reason not to allow the use of the Unchained talents that don't depend on the Unchained Rogue mechanics. It depends on your GM, and his willingness to check every URogue talent to see if the changes have some problematic effect on the CRB Rogue.
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The two lists or Rogue talents are strictly seperate, and (baring some weird multiclassing,) your character only ever has access to one of them.
Two things I have to add:
First, why do you want to use cRogue in the first place?
Second, and more important, the talent is a steaming pile of s$~! in either version. The unRogue version is actually much better (2.5 times as much bonus), but it's still mathematically terrible. Rerolling 1s effectively means adding +0.417 to the dice. It's multiplied by the number of SA dice, but unless you get into very high level, that never worth the attack roll penalty (unless you still hit on a 19 even with the penalty, but in that case, Power Attack or Piranha Strike would be better).
To make it clear how bad Powerful Sneak really is, let's say you're an 8th level Rogue. Power Attack or Piranha Striek would come with a -2 penalty on attack to add 4 to damage. Powerful Sneak also comes with a -2 penalty to attack, but only grants a damage bonus of 1,667! You'd neet to be nineteenths level or a better ration than Power Attack/Piranha Strike!
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I agree with Diego on this one. Another question: can core rogue talents be used by unchained rogues?
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I agree with Diego on this one. Another question: can core rogue talents be used by unchained rogues?
I already answered that one: The two lists or Rogue talents are strictly seperate, and (baring some weird multiclassing,) your character only ever has access to one of them.
Edit: To pre-empt the usual attempt at bypassing the rules: No, an unRogue can't use Ninja Trick -> Rogue Talent to access the cRogue list.
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I agree with Diego on this one. Another question: can core rogue talents be used by unchained rogues?
As I cited above, the URogue lists what CRB Rogue talents can be taken by the class. Later books talents should if they work with the URogue, CRBRogue or both.
The following rogue talents can be used without modification
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Your post hadn’t yet appeared on my screen when I posted Derklord so I didn’t see you had already answered the question. I had pretty much assumed the answer you gave but asked anyway to see if anyone had an opposing interpretation.
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I agree with Diego on this one. Another question: can core rogue talents be used by unchained rogues?As I cited above, the URogue lists what CRB Rogue talents can be taken by the class. Later books talents should if they work with the URogue, CRBRogue or both.
The following rogue talents can be used without modification
Actually, if you read the original text of the unchained book, all original rogue talents (and rage powers) are intended to work with the Unchained classes.
This chapter includes unchained versions of the barbarian, monk, rogue, and summoner, as well as subsystems that alter character advancement. These classes can be used alongside their original counterparts (although individual characters must use one version or the other exclusively). Some feats, rage powers, rogue talents, and other rules might not work with the unchained classes, and such rules should be reviewed before being used with the new versions. Finally, with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace.
Further, the UnRogue (and similar for barbarian) has a bit of text that clarifies their talent list is essentially just a selection of existing talents that they are sure there is no interaction between old and new Rogue versions, talents that they made official changes for, and talents that they simply just decided to reprint from core.
The rogue talents in this chapter include replacements for all of those in the Core Rulebook, along with selected revised rogue talents from other sources. The following rogue talents can be used without modification.
This doesn't preclude other talents that existed before Unchained's printing from being used, if they haven't been changed or otherwise listed, but it means you should probably look closely and ask your gm.
The idea for Unchained was not to make two different classes with trade offs for Barbarian, Rogue, and to a lesser extent monk and summoner (monk they admit is a bit harder to do and essentially unless the GM is willing to do legwork themselves, the two monk classes are both valid, especially for archetypes; summoner you're supposed to used the nerfed version). It was to make a straight up better version with access to all the old features except where something was already given to the rogue for free (i.e. no need to take the finesse rogue talent as an unchained rogue).
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Actually, if you read the original text of the unchained book, all original rogue talents (and rage powers) are intended to work with the Unchained classes.
Absolutely not. You're reading something into the text that isn't actually there. The sentence you bolded can just as well be interpreted to refer to all the rogue talents and rage powers not on the list of legal options for the unchainded classes.
"" If those Rogue Talents "can be used without modification", that means the ones not on the list can (or should) not be used without modification.
Unchained was Paizo's book for fixing things. Fixing rage cycling. Fixing Offensive Defense's self-stacking. Fixing Rogue stealing the Ninja's best tricks (pun intended). Saying the intend was to keep all the broken, unwanted stuff there is just absurd!
Fixing the utterly broken action economy that cripples melees without pounce with the Revised Action Economy. Fixing the reliance on the same items for every character with Automatic Bonus progression. Fixing both the stacking of saves and crippling of BAB from multiclassing with Fractional Bonuses. Fixing the virtual inability to multiclass most characters have (that was the byproduct of strengthening base classes to fix 3.5's worst excess) with Variant Multiclassing. Fixing no one taking non-gameplay-beneficial skills with Background Skills. And so on. This was not a book of just adding new options to existing ones!
So I guess my understanding is if you allow the unchained book you should use the classes and altered versions of the feats/abilities for everyone.
"" PU pg. 8 I would strongly advice against using both versions of Barbarian, Rogue, or Summoner in the same party, because their power levels vastly different, and the same applies to melee Monks.* But using e.g. a Zen Archer cMonk alongside a melee unMonk works just fine, and other archetypes and options still use the original version unless otherwise specified. For example, something that gains Sneak Attack "as a Rogue" uses the cRogue version that's blocked by concealment, and Sacred Fist Warpriest still uses the Flurry of Blows with the -2 penalty.
*) Although quite frankly, I'd ban cRogue, cMonk without an archetype that drastically alters the class (Sohei, Sensei, Zen Archer, Far Strike, Tetori), and cBarbarian (unless the player gives me a good reason why he needs it). Summoner depends on the power level of the group, although the default would be banning the APG version.
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Unchained was Paizo's book for fixing things. Fixing rage cycling. Fixing Offensive Defense's self-stacking. Fixing Rogue stealing the Ninja's best tricks (pun intended). Saying the intend was to keep all the broken, unwanted stuff there is just absurd!
90% of the rage cycling abilities are already specifically replaced or made obsolete by rage stances. Offensive Defense was already easily fixable by clarifying it doesn't stack with itself (as almost anybody who looked at it should have been able to determine was RAI) and is essentially replaced by debilitations anyway. Ninja ability stealing is unchanged as the ninja trick is on the list of explicitly "usable without change". There are also plenty of them (rage powers and rogue talents) that were there before, were completely fine, and were not called out as usable again that would be unnecessarily obtuse to require you to play a regular rogue to take. Also, none of the options are new, they are literally all existing stuff reworked.
It is meant as an update, however because it's expansion content, you won't find unchained classes in any of the adventure material which I guess is where people take that these are separate classes. If someone doesn't run or have unchained, they cant be expected to understand what debilitating strike is, and the absolute only instance of an unchained class is the unchained summoner because it gets less stuff (and I also can't find any normal summoner entries in at least the APs after 2015)
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90% of the rage cycling abilities are already specifically replaced or made obsolete by rage stances. Offensive Defense [...] is essentially replaced by debilitations anyway.
So you admit that they're replaced and that you can't grab the cBarb rage powers? You admit that Offensive Defense was replaced, which means you can't select it on an unRogue? If "all original rogue talents (and rage powers) are intended to work with the Unchained classes", which you said in your last post, they are not replaced.
Also, none of the options are new, they are literally all existing stuff reworked.
Which only reinforces my argument that the options are replacements, and that you don't get them in addition to the older stuff (or vice versa).
Ninja ability stealing is unchanged as the ninja trick is on the list of explicitly "usable without change".
But the Ki Pool talent is not on the list, making most ninja tricks, especially the de-facto signature ability of the Ninja, Vanishing Trick, unusuable. Also, Master Tricks is unaviable.
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If you have access to the unchained rouge why would you want to use the core rogue? The unchained version is a straight upgrade to the class. Playing a core rogue is like playing a warrior instead of a fighter.
Personally I don’t have a problem with unchained rogues taking talents from the core rogue list that do not have an unchained version. This is mainly to allow all the talents from the latter books that did not get updated for the unchained rogue. It seems kind of unfair to limit a rogue to a single book for talents when other classes have a dozen books of options to choose from. This may not be RAW but to me it is only fair. If there is an unchained version of the talent that is the one that should be used, for those that do not have an unchained version use the existing original talent.
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This is mainly to allow all the talents from the latter books that did not get updated for the unchained rogue.
All the books released after Unchained (except for Cohorts and Companions which was already in production) have all rogue talents aviable for both versions of the class. So it's really just talents from a couple of non-core books from 2013 to 2015 that aren't revised or aviable to unRogue at all (Cohorts and Companions, Inner Sea Combat, Ranged Tactics Toolbox, The Harrow Handbook, Blood of the Moon, Champions of Purity, Magical Marketplace, and People of the Sands (plus most of ARG for catfolk)).
It seems kind of unfair to limit a rogue to a single book for talents when other classes have a dozen books of options to choose from.
unRogue has talents from 18 different books (and two more by proxy). In comparison, Magus has arcanae from 10 books, Investigators and Vigilantes each have talents from 9 books, Witch has hexes from 19 books, and even cBarb has only rage powers from 22 books, so not that many more.
If there is an unchained version of the talent that is the one that should be used, for those that do not have an unchained version use the existing original talent.
That would still allow Ki Pool and Offensive Defense (which even if you disallow stacking with itself could still stack with Debilitating Injury). Allowing rogue talents from the above listed books for unRogue should be fine.
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90% of the rage cycling abilities are already specifically replaced or made obsolete by rage stances. Offensive Defense [...] is essentially replaced by debilitations anyway.So you admit that they're replaced and that you can't grab the cBarb rage powers? You admit that Offensive Defense was replaced, which means you can't select it on an unRogue? If "all original rogue talents (and rage powers) are intended to work with the Unchained classes", which you said in your last post, they are not replaced.
Yes, the abilities specifically replaced are gone, that is what I said, not the ones that aren't specifically given a new version (which again is like 90% of the rage cycling powers) and there are a couple new rage cycling powers anyway. Sorry you can't extrapolate between two sentences that "all original rogue talents (and rage powers) [that aren't reworded or replaced or have a clearly redone version that might not be exactly called the same thing] are intended to work with the Unchained Class" which again, is not my words, but the words of the book itself.
Also, none of the options are new, they are literally all existing stuff reworked.Which only reinforces my argument that the options are replacements, and that you don't get them in addition to the older stuff (or vice versa).
That changes nothing for the rogue talents that aren't mentioned. This just means that those ones replace the previous ones and as mentioned above, everything else untouched is fair game.
Ninja ability stealing is unchanged as the ninja trick is on the list of explicitly "usable without change".But the Ki Pool talent is not on the list, making most ninja tricks, especially the de-facto signature ability of the Ninja, Vanishing Trick, unusuable. Also, Master Tricks is unaviable.
Or, since ki pool isn't called out as changed, and ninja was always just an archetype of rogue anyway, you were always meant to be able to pull from both lists as often as you want (ninja just gets a better ki pool), that's still preserved. We also have a ruling from society which by its wording indicates that normally you can take talents/rage powers from anywhere (again barring said intended changes to specific talents/powers). Also, for your typical rogue, just taking minor and major magic is enough to get as many uses out of vanishing trick as you were going to get anyway without also spending 2 talents for ki pool>vanishing trick anyway; and you get your minor magic.
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Sorry you can't extrapolate between two sentences that "all original rogue talents (and rage powers) [that aren't reworded or replaced or have a clearly redone version that might not be exactly called the same thing] are intended to work with the Unchained Class" which again, is not my words, but the words of the book itself.
Can you get any more dishonest? First, those are indeed your words and not "the words of the book itself" so that statement is an outright lie. Second, do you even know what the word "extrapolate" means? It means using an established observation to make a prediction of something outside the original observation. What you're saying I'm supposed to do is take your statement, ignore what it actually says, and guess what you were trying to say based on some other things that contradict the first statement.
Your alleged extrapolation is moving the goalposts, pure and simple. You have realized that your original statement was wrong, but instead of being honest and showing the integrity to admit that, you've tried to paint it that I was simply too stupid to understand what you wanted to say.
I'm not having it. Your statement was "all original rogue talents (and rage powers) are intended to work with the Unchained classes", and that statement is wrong.
We have two vastly different interpretations.
Your interpretation is that the book contradicts itself, that the sidebars of allowed rogue talents or rage powers are completely redundant, and that players and GMs have to meticulously compare the rage powers and rogue talents from every book with every single unchained rogue talent to see if any might be a stealthy adaptation (it's not as if you can go by name - Spell Sunder for isntance was incorporated into Witch Hunter).
My interpretation is that everything not in the book is simply unaviable (not counting later books), no extra work needed.
Occam's razor.
Offensive Defense [...] and is essentially replaced by debilitations anyway.
You know what's funny? You aren't even able to do what you're saying people are supposed to do. Offensive Defense is not the Rogue Talent that was replaced by the Disoriented Debiliting Injury... but rather Befuddling Strike is.
We also have a ruling from society which by its wording indicates that normally you can take talents/rage powers from anywhere (again barring said intended changes to specific talents/powers).
Once agains you're reading something into existing text. That the blog post outright says that only rogue talents in that book are allowed for unRogue does not automatically mean that this is a change to how the rules usually are, because it can also be a mere clarification.
Or, since ki pool isn't called out as changed, and ninja was always just an archetype of rogue anyway, you were always meant to be able to pull from both lists as often as you want (ninja just gets a better ki pool), that's still preserved.
And another pathetic attempt of moving the goalposts. You said that "Ninja ability stealing is unchanged as the ninja trick is on the list of explicitly "usable without change"." I have proven you wrong. No amount of "well, I actually meant..." changes that.
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Scroll up and see it literally quoted in bold from the Unchained book. Not my words. Anything beyond that is simply you misunderstanding and you thinking you see a goalpost moving when you are just circling the fence of what's already there.
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Pretty much all of the core rogue talents can be used with unchained rogue. There's a short list of specific talents that have be modified specifically for unchained rogue, and you're not supposed to use the core rogue talents in that case. I can get you a list if you're curious, but the easiest way to find them yourself is at Unchained Rogue Talents and scan the list for 1's next to the talent name; so if it has a 1 next to the name, then this talent appears on both the Rogue and URogue lists, and you're supposed to use the URogue-modified version.
But other than that, it's pretty much open season.
Talents marked with an (1) are talents that were updated to work specifically with the unchained rogue; do not use the older version of these talents intended for the core rogue. Talents marked with an (2) are unmodified talents from the core rogue that also work as is with the unchained rogue.
As far as OP's question: technically, no. But, the talents that have been modified for Unchained Rogue can easily be used for Core Rogue with minimal finagling, most of the time no finagling at all. They do pretty much the same thing, except some URogue talent versions are more powerful than the CRogue versions. You just need to discuss it with your GM, but it should be fine. There's nothing game-breaking about switching URogue-modified talents to CRogue.
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Scroll up and see it literally quoted in bold from the Unchained book. Not my words.
*blink blink* Are you literally trying to convince me that the statement "all original rogue talents (and rage powers) [that aren't reworded or replaced or have a clearly redone version that might not be exactly called the same thing] are intended to work with the Unchained Class" verbatim appears in the sentence "Some feats, rage powers, rogue talents, and other rules might not work with the unchained classes, and such rules should be reviewed before being used with the new versions."?
Wow. Just wow. It's crazy to what levels of denying reality some people stoop to just so that they don't have to admit having been wrong.