I'm currently trying to create a character for the Giantslayer Adventure Path, and right now I am contemplating a Skald/Spell Warrior. But I am a bit confused how Weapon Song works.
"Enhance Weapons (Su) At 1st level, the spell warrior can grant a +1 enhancement bonus to the weapons (including ammunition) of allies within 60 feet. At 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter, this enhancement bonus increases by 1. The maximum bonus gained is based upon the number of weapons affected: +5 to one weapon, +4 to two weapons, +3 to three weapons, or +2 to four or more weapons. Fifty pieces of ammunition count as one weapon for this purpose. The wielder of a weapon enhanced by this raging song counts as if he were under the effect of an inspired rage raging song for all purposes involving the skald’s rage powers.
These bonuses can also be used to add any of the following weapon special abilities to the weapons enhanced by this ability: dancing, defending, distance, flaming, frost, ghost touch, keen, mighty cleaving, returning, shock, seeking, or speed. Adding these weapon special abilities consumes an amount of bonus equal to the special ability’s cost (see Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities). These enhancement bonuses and special abilities overlap with any enhancements or special abilities the weapon already has, though duplicate special abilities do not stack. If an affected weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other special abilities can be.
Let's say that, by default, I plan to boost the four party members who fight with weapons. Does this mean that I effectively "top out" at Level 5 unless I decide to enchant fewer weapons?
Or is this limitation merely to the direct to hit/damage bonus, and could I shift the "excess" bonuses to weapon special ability (for example, "+2 flaming weapons" at level 10)?
Capping out isn't great, but on the bright side, you get to grant rage powers to your party without affecting their ability to cast spells.
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These enhancement bonuses and special abilities overlap with any enhancements or special abilities the weapon already has, though duplicate special abilities do not stack.
That means that you can't increase the enhancement bonus of magical weapons, only set up a second, parallel, enhancement bonus at the maximum number available to you. On the other hand, you can make all of the party weapons that are already magical ghost touch when needed or add the appropriate energy damage to stop some creature from regenerating or make them keen. Not bad, but not extremely powerful.
These enhancement bonuses and special abilities overlap with any enhancements or special abilities the weapon already has, though duplicate special abilities do not stack.That means that you can't increase the enhancement bonus of magical weapons, only set up a second, parallel, enhancement bonus at the maximum number available to you. On the other hand, you can make all of the party weapons that are already magical ghost touch when needed or add the appropriate energy damage to stop some creature from regenerating or make them keen. Not bad, but not extremely powerful.
That’s open to interpretation. Overlap and stack can have the same meaning. It is some awkward phrasing though.
I’m pretty sure the intent is for the enhancement bonuses to stack and it’s not overpowered to read it that way, so you should read it that way.
Not really... if it was meant to function like the Arcane Duelist Bard's Bladethirst Performance, it would probably be worded more like Bladethirst... I don't think Weapon Song stacks [especially considering it says it does not stack]...
Bladethirst (Su): An arcane duelist of 6th level or higher may use performance to grant one weapon, one natural weapon, one end of a double weapon, or 50 items of ammunition of the same type within 30 feet a +1 enhancement bonus. This enhancement bonus increases by +1 for every three levels after 6th (maximum +5 at 18th level). These bonuses stack with existing bonuses and may be used to increase the item’s enhancement bonus up to +5 or to add any of the following weapon properties: defending, distance, ghost touch, keen, mighty cleaving, returning, shock, shocking burst, seeking, speed, or wounding. If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before adding special abilities.
This performance replaces suggestion.
It doesn’t say it doesn’t stack. It just uses an unusual word for “stack”. Probably some editor trying to save word count on an archetype. That happens often enough.
Searching the CRB (glossary, combat and magic chapters) and the CRB faq there is only one use of the word "overlap" I find is this:
"Spell resistance does not stack, but rather overlaps."
So I do not think the rules use overlap as a synonym of stack.
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These enhancement bonuses and special abilities overlap with any enhancements or special abilities the weapon already has, though duplicate special abilities do not stack.That means that you can't increase the enhancement bonus of magical weapons, only set up a second, parallel, enhancement bonus at the maximum number available to you. On the other hand, you can make all of the party weapons that are already magical ghost touch when needed or add the appropriate energy damage to stop some creature from regenerating or make them keen. Not bad, but not extremely powerful.That’s open to interpretation. Overlap and stack can have the same meaning. It is some awkward phrasing though.
I’m pretty sure the intent is for the enhancement bonuses to stack and it’s not overpowered to read it that way, so you should read it that way.
I think that the game rules use this definition for overlap: "to occupy the same area in part". There is "to have something in common" too. I don't know any definition of overlap that means stack.
It doesn’t say it doesn’t stack. It just uses an unusual word for “stack”. Probably some editor trying to save word count on an archetype. That happens often enough.
Now you are really stretching it. There is a basic rule on how things stack:
Stacking: Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies. Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are added together. Penalties and bonuses generally stack with one another, meaning that the penalties might negate or exceed part or all of the bonuses, and vice versa.
The Skald performance gives an enhancement bonus, it doesn't say it stack with other enhancement bonuses, so it doesn't stack.
As we are speaking of rules, you need actual permission to have enhancement bonuses stack. Hipotyzing a editorial error when having them stack require an actual text saying that is really far-fetched.
Maybe the game rules hadn't used overlap like that before, but that's not really important here. The actual definition of overlap has much the same meaning as stack. One thing being placed on top of another.
Let's look at that sentence:
These enhancement bonuses and special abilities overlap with any enhancements or special abilities the weapon already has, though duplicate special abilities do not stack.
It says the enchancement bonuses overlap with other enhancement bonuses, meaning that one is on top of the other. But more important is the ending statement calling out that the special abilities do not stack. Just special abilities are called out that way. This means the intention was for the enhancement bonuses to stack. And you can't just say that it's because enhancement bonuses already don't stack, because then there is no point in mentioning them at all in that sentence. The phrase could have just said:
These special abilities overlap with any special abilities the weapon already has, though duplicate special abilities do not stack.
See how much clearer and shorter that is if we are making the assumption that enhancement bonuses don't stack in the writing of this text.
And then remember what source this is from. The Advanced Class Guide. Probably the most error filled book we got in the core line. We have to take all of this text with a large grain of salt. I think it's more important to see what is reasonable. And I see nothing unreasonable with this archetype letting you stack your enhancement bonus to a total attack bonus near what the default class can grant. Especially since the default class is also granting constitution and will saves with the equivalent ability.
Well, the Warpriest ALSO came out in the Advanced Class Guide... and it does not use the word overlap when Sacred Weapon says this:
"...These bonuses stack with any existing bonuses the weapon might have, to a maximum of +5..."
And the Arcane Duelist Bard's Bladethirst definition was published 4yrs prior.
The Magus' Arcane Pool definition was published 3yrs before Spell Warrior's Weapon Song... Arcane Pool didn't use the word overlap when it wrote:
"... These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5..."
In my opinion, Weapon Song does not stack. We have examples of things that do stack, and they all say so. I could probably quote the Paladin's Divine Bond, too, if I cared to do so... it probably does not use the word overlap, either. Paladins are CRB, circa 2009, so if you didn't use THAT as an example for writing your new stuff, maybe you were writing stuff for a different game entirely. One that uses the word overlap to mean the same as stack in their rules and descriptions... but that's not a thing in PF1. Never has been, either.
For the sake of being thorough, Paladin wrote:
"... These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5, or they can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: axiomatic, brilliant energy, defending, disruption, flaming, flaming burst, holy, keen, merciful, and speed..."
Just because something has been worded one way doesn’t mean that it can’t be worded another. Not all developers copy paste their work.
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Just because something has been worded one way doesn’t mean that it can’t be worded another. Not all developers copy paste their work.
If there is a standard way to say something that has been used in all examples for more than half a decade and a developer decides to change that "because today I want a different turn of the phrase", that developer should be shown the door.
Not using copy-paste when you use a common mechanic isn't a show of creativity, it is a show of incompetence.
It was one of the worst edited books ever, so maybe someone actually was shown the door.
But that’s assuming they even knew about that precedent. The writer or editor may not have been that familiar with the rules in the first place.
When my group played through Giantslayer, we had a skald with weapon song, and played it as being an enhancement bonus that didn't stack. I don't think the skald ever used it to enhance anything less than the entire party's weapons--or, once we all had magic weapons, adding qualities to all of those. Even though he could only add +2 worth of bonuses, they were always useful, even at higher levels. It was a very cheap way for the party to do bonus energy damage, which freed us to invest in other weapon qualities. And when the party needs ghost touch, *everybody* needs ghost touch!
Thanks for your replies, everyone! I have some further questions:
- Does every affected weapon need to get the same enchantment bonuses/special abilities, or is it possible to pick these individually for each affected weapon?
- If the latter, who gets to pick how the bonuses are used? The Skald, or the wielder of the affected weapon.
- Assuming that everyone has to get the same bonuses: If the Skald gives special abilities instead of enchantment bonuses, does this mean that one who wields an unenchanted weapon is unaffected by the rage powers of the Weapon Song?
The Weapon Song description states that "The wielder of a weapon enhanced by this raging song counts as if he were under the effect of an inspired rage raging song for all purposes involving the skald’s rage powers."
- So this means that the weapon must actually be wielded in the target's hand, instead of merely carried on their person, right?
- If they drop the weapon, does this mean that the rage powers immediately end?
Thanks for your replies, everyone! I have some further questions:
- Does every affected weapon need to get the same enchantment bonuses/special abilities, or is it possible to pick these individually for each affected weapon?
Since it's a single song, you have to select the enchantment bonus and/or ability(ies) granted to all affected weapons. Note that even Lingering Performance, although it applies to skald songs, doesn't allow multiple simultaneous effects from the same skald ("If you begin a new bardic performance during this time, the effects of the previous performance immediately cease.").
- If the latter, who gets to pick how the bonuses are used? The Skald, or the wielder of the affected weapon.
Even though the enhancement bonus and/or abilities are the same: The skald, as the singer, always chooses the effect of the Weapon Song.
- Assuming that everyone has to get the same bonuses: If the Skald gives special abilities instead of enchantment bonuses, does this mean that one who wields an unenchanted weapon is unaffected by the rage powers of the Weapon Song?
"If an affected weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other special abilities can be." If a character is not wielding a weapon affected by Weapon Song, they do not qualify for the Inspiring Rage bonuses.
The Weapon Song description states that "The wielder of a weapon enhanced by this raging song counts as if he were under the effect of an inspired rage raging song for all purposes involving the skald’s rage powers."
- So this means that the weapon must actually be wielded in the target's hand, instead of merely carried on their person, right?
Yes, a character has to actually wield a weapon affected by Weapon Song to benefit from the Inspired Rage bonuses.
- If they drop the weapon, does this mean that the rage powers immediately end?
If they are no longer wielding a weapon affected by Weapon Song, they no longer meet the criteria for the Inspired Rage bonuses.
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Kinetic blasts count as a type of weapon for the purpose of feats such as Weapon Focus.
It is treated as a type of weapon for the purpose of feats. Not for other stuff.
Note that "count as ... for" do exactly what it says, and nothing more.
The benefit of "count as a type of weapon ... for ... feats" is simply that feats that require you to select a type of weapon to which they are applied when chosen can select Kinetick blast.
It doesn't even allow you to take other feats that apply to weapons but don't require selecting a type of weapon.
Kinetic Blade would count, but there are timing issues, since you accept the rage at the start of your turn.