Need help with some clarification.
Playing a Defensive/Bodyguard Paladin build (Adopted and Helpful Halfling Traits).
Fighting defensively, you are allowed to attack with a penalty. Lay on Hands on yourself is a swift action, so I dont see a conflict with that. But can I use LoH on an ally while fighting defensively? My reasoning is I could use LoH to harm undead creatures as an attack.
Also, can I channel while fighting defensively?
I tried Binging the interwebs and couldn't find any similar discussions on this.
Thanks in advance.
raw you HAVE to attack to gain the fight defensively ac bonus ("You can choose to fight defensively when attacking"). so you might need to roll to hit on your friend. (who can also not avoid you. maybe counting his touch ac with a 0 dex score so modifier of -5 to ac)
but then we go into the whole 'why with touch spells do i need to roll to touch an enemy but not a friend' => because a friend doesn't avoid the touch.
so it's reasonable for the dm to rule that if the friend is in reach and doesn't avoid the touch you can deliver it with an 'attack' that is an auto hit. (there are cases similar to this - like how combat maneuvers are considered an automatic success if the target doesn't resist)
the difference from this and normal delivering of touch spells to allies is that this would need a standard action and effect only one ally. while you can deliver a multi-use touch effect to up to 8 allies in the same round when not using the fighting defensively action.
zza ni, thank you for the reply, much obliged.
Please enjoy the Thanksgiving Holiday, if not, enjoy it anyways!!1
To quote myself:
The problem with fighting defensively is that the description contradicts itself - the header says "as a Standard Action", the description says "when attacking". "As a" denotes an active ability, "when" denotes a reactive/triggered ability. It can't be both, though, so one of the two must be erroneous.
The full-round version does the same, the header talks about "as a Full-Round Action" (active ability), while the description talks about "when taking a full-attack action" (reactive/triggered ability).
Now, if we look at the table on pg. 183 of the CRB, fighting defensively is not listed as its own action, a strong indication that it's not supposed to be one. Also, if we take the headers literally, you couldn't make any normal attacks when using either option (as it uses up the standard action), and the "full-round action" version would have no reason to exist because it would do the same as the "standard action" version, only for a higher cost. Going by the assumption that rules segments actually do something, the only logical interpretation is that the "full-round action" version can be used whenever you take a full-attack action, as the description says, and the header is for classification purposes. Now it gets confusing, because the "standard action" version says "attacking", which is not an action. It could mean that you can use fighting defensively whenever an attack is made as a standard action. Still, I think it's very clear that "full-round action" actually and only refers to the "full-attack action", a subsection of the former, and it is reasonable to presume that "standard action" likewise refers to a specific action that's a subsection of the standard action - and that can only be the attack action. I thus suspect that "when using the attack action" is what they were actually intending for the description, though, albeit it's not what's actually written.
My reasoning is I could use LoH to harm undead creatures as an attack.
You aren't, though. You're trying to use an option that grants a bonus in exchange for a penalty without taking the penalty.
An attack is (as the term is used in the combat section of the rules, spells have a seperate definition) an act that includes an attack roll. No attack roll, no attack. So even under generous interpretation can fighting defensively only be combined with LoH when you make an attack roll, and never with Channel Energy.
A dragons breath weapon is an Su ability made as a standard action that doesn’t make an attack roll but I would still consider that an attack (although not an attack action as defined by the rules). I bet if I spend 10 min or so skimming through various abilities I’m sure I could find more examples of abilities that don’t require attack rolls that could still be considered as an attack.
A swarm’s “Swarm Attack” ability even has attack in the name and that ability doesn’t require an attack roll or even allow for a save. I believe the definition of “attack” (outside of the definition specific to spells) is a bit broader than you describe.
i usually rule that attack is what break invisibility.
so spells that force a save and combat maneuvers and anything that have a to hit roll is. but laying a trap isn't or summoning monsters etc.
now 'attack action' is defined as something specific in the combat section.
The problem with both your interpretations is that the rules for fighting defensively are literally in the rules for the standard attack action, which is only for manufactured weapons, unarmed strikes, and natural weapons. "Use Special Ability" (which is what's used for a Breath Weapon or LoH on others) is a seperate part in the same rule section.
oh no. for my homebrew ruling let me make it clear. attacking for the defensive fighting is not the same as attacking for breaking invisibility.
so you can't cast an offensive spell with no ti hit and gain it. then i was referring to the side discussion of what does an attack include.
but here you'r talking about attacking in FIGHTING defensively - it need to include fighting for it to count.
Ah, ok, I misunderstood you. Apologies.
What you talk about is actually spelled out (and I mean outside of the Invisibility description): "" CRB pg. 208
However, the CRB uses the word "attack" in a variety of different meanings, and you have to guess which one is intended. For example: "" CRB pg, 179 This clearly uses a different meaning of "attack" than what I quoted above, and indeed doesn't even apply to combat maneuvers (which generally benefit from things increasing attack rolls).
Similarly, "" CRB pg. 179 This does not mean you apply a deflection bonus to saving throws, even though spells that require one are considered "attacks" as per the above.
When you fight defensively you are taking a penalty on your chance to hit, and gaining a bonus to AC. If you are not making an attack roll you cannot gain the benefits of fighting defensively.
Personally I would allow it but require the character using lay on hands to make an attack roll. If the target was willing they could decide not to use their DEX bonus so the attack roll would be against the targets flat footed touch AC, even though the character is not flat footed. The rules state that you can touch up to 6 willing targets. It does not say you cannot make an attack roll. If the character is willing to chance missing and wasting his LoH I see no reason he cannot also fight defensively. This is my own interpretation of the rule and not anything official. It makes since that if you are fighting defensively you may miss when using LoH.
As long as you take the attack action or full attack action you can fight defensively. Thus you cannot fight defensively when delivering a touch spell or making a ranged attack with the spell because you did not take either of the actions that allow you to fight defensively even though you made an attack.