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It isn't as simple as that:
1) You are level 16. A level 16 creature is stunned 1 - this means it loses 1 action. A level 14-15 is stunned for 1 round - but a boss shouldn't be lower level as you.
2) It is a Focus Spell - casting it multiple times will be a problem. Most ever would be a full Focus Pool of 3 and you use it all in 3 rounds.
3) The Spell is uncommon - so not sure how to get access.
4) Just read - once targetted it leads to immunity 10 minutes - so there goes the cast it multiple times.
Yes - it is devastating on a low level enemy 13 or lower (d6 rounds they can't do anything) - but a level -3 monster should be no problem to take out multiple rounds.
Edit: And it doesn't even work on a true boss who is higher level as you. Well - might have worked at level 15 for a level 16 enemy.
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What Thod is saying is that a boss wouldn't become stunned in the first place, at least not by that spell. Though yes, it could work on an at-level monster.
Note you can't Ready for the start of an enemy's turn since that's meta-knowledge your PC doesn't have access to/can't observe. Of course you can reword it for "when X begins an action" or something similar. That leads to the unresolved issue of what occurs when a Ready action gets triggered by an opponent's action: can it interrupt or not? Some specific Reactions can, there's no doubt, but they also have wording to support that or even to suggest the Reaction occurs first. Ready doesn't have that, and if witnessing an action triggers your Reaction, that action's already happening so would resolve. Or not. Again, it's an unresolved discussion last I saw, with proponents for both sides.
The previous discussion involved a Monk's Flurry & Stunning Fist if you want to search for it.
As for whether stunning on a Reaction leads to the enemy losing the rest of their turn because the stun clock doesn't tick down until the beginning of their next turn, that falls in the "too good to be true" category. That's like making a Stun 1 condition the equivalent of Stun 4! Hopefully you can see how that shouldn't happen. If I recall (it's been a long time since that thread!) some were saying they wouldn't apply the Stun condition until the beginning of the creature's next turn while others were saying they'd just subtract the lost action immediately. Though the latter could lead to stacking issues if the target's also Slowed, it's the direction I'd lean in interpreting this.
I don't recall anybody interpreting it like you seem to want them to, though it wouldn't surprise me. It would disappoint me though.
Before arguing RAW, remember that by RAW, RAW is no longer king. Reasonableness matters more, and "too good to be true" being a warning flag is RAW as well. Another way to frame it is whether you'd find it a fair rules interpretation if enemies regularly used it on you.
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You need to read the whole stunned condition.
stun (part of)Each time you regain actions (such as at the start of your turn), reduce the number you regain by your stunned value, then reduce your stunned value by the number of actions you lost. For example, if you were stunned 4, you would lose all 3 of your actions on your turn, reducing you to stunned 1; on your next turn, you would lose 1 more action, and then be able to use your remaining 2 actions normally.
Stun 1 means you lose 1 action. Yes - you can’t act while stunned. But if an enemy has 3 actions then he loses the first on stun 1 and can act afterwards as stun is over.
It even tells you as example that on stun 1 you only lose the first action and carry on.
There is a HUGE difference between stun 1 (lose 1 action) and stunned 1 round.
The latter tends to come with the incapacitation trait and makes it difficult to apply on a boss.
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One more bit:
You likely need a Nat20 to crit against the boss.
It is therefore best to delay instead of ready.
Ready means 2 actions. You nearly double the chance of a critical. Also - the boss loses his reactions while stunned. Especially useful if he has AoO.
This would make it nearly 4 times more effective to strike him with the gun directly after his round instead of a readied action.
Keep in mind while you ready you can’t to exactions of your own as further downside.
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I don't have much to add to what's already been said regarding RAI, as I agree with both Thod and Castilliano, but I do have something that might help the RAW case if that's something that the OP's table sticks strictly to (or someone else for that matter):
It's true that "you can't act while stunned", as per Stunned. However, it also says "Stunned usually includes a value, which indicates how many total actions you lose". It then goes onto explain how these actions are deducted, but the way I see it the phrase "which indicates how many total actions you lose" overrides any weird interaction with being stunned in the middle of your turn. So I would argue that there are multiple ways of interpreting when the actions are deducted in that edge-case as it's not explained in detail within the rules (personally I'd go with the start of their next turn, but that's just me), but whatever is chosen it should most definitely follow the rule of only losing a number of actions equal to the value of the stunned condition (unless it's a length of time rather than a value, of course).
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You need to read the whole stunned condition.
stun (part of)Each time you regain actions (such as at the start of your turn), reduce the number you regain by your stunned value, then reduce your stunned value by the number of actions you lost. For example, if you were stunned 4, you would lose all 3 of your actions on your turn, reducing you to stunned 1; on your next turn, you would lose 1 more action, and then be able to use your remaining 2 actions normally.Stun 1 means you lose 1 action. Yes - you can’t act while stunned. But if an enemy has 3 actions then he loses the first on stun 1 and can act afterwards as stun is over.
It even tells you as example that on stun 1 you only lose the first action and carry on.
There is a HUGE difference between stun 1 (lose 1 action) and stunned 1 round.
The latter tends to come with the incapacitation trait and makes it difficult to apply on a boss.
This is incorrect information as far as I am concerned.
You've become senseless. You can't act while stunned. Stunned usually includes a value, which indicates how many total actions you lose, possibly over multiple turns, from being stunned. Each time you regain actions (such as at the start of your turn), reduce the number you regain by your stunned value, then reduce your stunned value by the number of actions you lost. For example, if you were stunned 4, you would lose all 3 of your actions on your turn, reducing you to stunned 1; on your next turn, you would lose 1 more action, and then be able to use your remaining 2 actions normally. Stunned might also have a duration instead of a value, such as “stunned for 1 minute.” In this case, you lose all your actions for the listed duration.
Stunned overrides slowed. If the duration of your stunned condition ends while you are slowed, you count the actions lost to the stunned condition toward those lost to being slowed. So, if you were stunned 1 and slowed 2 at the beginning of your turn, you would lose 1 action from stunned, and then lose only 1 additional action by being slowed, so you would still have 1 action remaining to use that turn.
The Stunned Value doesn't reduce until the enemy regains actions. So if you use Power Word Stun (not a focus spell btw) during an opponents turn they will effectively lose ALL of their actions on that turn, and another action the next time they regain actions.
I see nothing in Stunned that mentions only losing a single action in this case.
Further you have the "Gaining And Losing Actions" sidebar which clarifies further:
Quickened, slowed, and stunned are the primary ways you can gain or lose actions on a turn. The rules for how this works appear on page 462. In brief, these conditions alter how many actions you regain at the start of your turn; thus, gaining the condition in the middle of your turn doesn’t adjust your number of actions on that turn. If you have conflicting conditions that affect your number of actions, you choose which actions you lose. For instance, the action gained from haste lets you only Stride or Strike, so if you need to lose one action because you’re also slowed, you might decide to lose the action from haste, letting you keep your other actions that can be used more flexibly.
Some conditions prevent you from taking a certain subset of actions, typically reactions. Other conditions simply say you can’t act. When you can’t act, you’re unable to take any actions at all. Unlike slowed or stunned, these don’t change the number of actions you regain; they just prevent you from using them. That means if you are somehow cured of paralysis on your turn, you can act immediately.
To summarize, while Stunned, you cannot act. You don't alter the number of actions you regained by gaining Stunned in the middle of your turn, so Stunned remains until the next time you regain actions.
In the OP's case, this would mean that the BBEG would trigger whatever the condition the player set for their action, become Stunned 1 and end their turn due to being unable to act. The following round, they would regain actions, 1 less for being stunned, and act normally.
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You've become senseless. You can't act while stunned. Stunned usually includes a value, which indicates how many total actions you lose, possibly over multiple turns, from being stunned. Each time you regain actions (such as at the start of your turn), reduce the number you regain by your stunned value, then reduce your stunned value by the number of actions you lost. For example, if you were stunned 4, you would lose all 3 of your actions on your turn, reducing you to stunned 1; on your next turn, you would lose 1 more action, and then be able to use your remaining 2 actions normally. Stunned might also have a duration instead of a value, such as “stunned for 1 minute.” In this case, you lose all your actions for the listed duration.
Stunned overrides slowed. If the duration of your stunned condition ends while you are slowed, you count the actions lost to the stunned condition toward those lost to being slowed. So, if you were stunned 1 and slowed 2 at the beginning of your turn, you would lose 1 action from stunned, and then lose only 1 additional action by being slowed, so you would still have 1 action remaining to use that turn.
Instead of highlighting the second and fourth sentence I highlight the third one. It clearly states how many actions you lose.
Trying to circumvent this by clever timing is just trying to make stun a lot more powerful through a technicality in the wording.
There is a conflict here:
a) when to reduce numbers of stun (normally at the start of a turn)
b) how many numbers of actions to remove
Even
Quickened, slowed, and stunned are the primary ways you can gain or lose actions on a turn. The rules for how this works appear on page 462. In brief, these conditions alter how many actions you regain at the start of your turn; thus, gaining the condition in the middle of your turn doesn’t adjust your number of actions on that turn. If you have conflicting conditions that affect your number of actions, you choose which actions you lose. For instance, the action gained from haste lets you only Stride or Strike, so if you need to lose one action because you’re also slowed, you might decide to lose the action from haste, letting you keep your other actions that can be used more flexibly.
Some conditions prevent you from taking a certain subset of actions, typically reactions. Other conditions simply say you can’t act. When you can’t act, you’re unable to take any actions at all. Unlike slowed or stunned, these don’t change the number of actions you regain; they just prevent you from using them. That means if you are somehow cured of paralysis on your turn, you can act immediately.
So I go with Aw3som3-117 - the only bit that isn't spelled out is how to do the Maths if it happens during the turn of a character.
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Funny, you almost highlighted a torpedo for your own argument.
"Unlike Slowed or Stunned, these don't change the number of actions you regain; they just prevent you from using them."
I argue, and have argued in the past, that Stunned both reduces the number of actions you regain at the beginning of your turn, and prevents you from using actions that you already have.
Stunned is not a weaker slowed. It is Stunned. You can't act while Stunned. The only way to become unstunned is to lose actions while regaining them, not to be "unable" to use an action during your turn.
None of the rules text states that a character who becomes stunned during their turn loses any actions at all. The only things we know are the following:
1. You can't act while Stunned.
2. When you Regain Actions, reduce that number of actions by your stunned value, then reduce your stunned value by a commensurate amount.
3. If you become Stunned during your turn, you don't immediately lose actions. You are simply prevented from using them.
I think ( or at least, this is how we deal with the stunned condition ) it's either "you can't act while stunned", assuming no value, or you "can't act until you pay for stunned condition".
The fact you can't act ( let's assume you become stunned because of an enemy spell, effect, etc ), happens 99.9% of the times during the enemy turn, resulting in you not being able to act outside of you turn, mostly ( reactions ).
On you turn, if the stunned condition has a value, you pay for it and act with the action you have left. If the stunned condition doesn't have a value, you don't act.
And the best RAI working ruling (houserule) that I have for the odd scenario where you become stunned with a value during your own turn is that you are unable to act for the duration of your turn, but the actions you lose as a result count towards ticking down the stunned condition.
So if your first action is a move action that provokes a reaction which causes stunned 4 on your character: you lose the rest of your turn - which is 2 actions. Then at the start of your next turn you lose 2 more actions which brings the total of lost actions to 4 and finishes paying off the stunned condition. You then have 1 action left for that turn.
If you instead got stunned 1, you would still lose the rest of your turn - which is still 2 actions. But at the start of your next turn you have already paid (overpaid in fact) for the stunned value and it is removed.
The reason you still lose your entire remaining turn even when you have two actions and are only stunned 1 is because you only check for removal of the condition at the start of your turn.
Funny, you almost highlighted a torpedo for your own argument.
"Unlike Slowed or Stunned, these don't change the number of actions you regain; they just prevent you from using them."
I argue, and have argued in the past, that Stunned both reduces the number of actions you regain at the beginning of your turn, and prevents you from using actions that you already have.
Stunned is not a weaker slowed. It is Stunned. You can't act while Stunned. The only way to become unstunned is to lose actions while regaining them, not to be "unable" to use an action during your turn.
None of the rules text states that a character who becomes stunned during their turn loses any actions at all. The only things we know are the following:
1. You can't act while Stunned.
2. When you Regain Actions, reduce that number of actions by your stunned value, then reduce your stunned value by a commensurate amount.
3. If you become Stunned during your turn, you don't immediately lose actions. You are simply prevented from using them.
"Unlike" slowed or stunned...
"Unlike" slowed or stunned...Funny, you almost highlighted a torpedo for your own argument.
"Unlike Slowed or Stunned, these don't change the number of actions you regain; they just prevent you from using them."
I argue, and have argued in the past, that Stunned both reduces the number of actions you regain at the beginning of your turn, and prevents you from using actions that you already have.
Stunned is not a weaker slowed. It is Stunned. You can't act while Stunned. The only way to become unstunned is to lose actions while regaining them, not to be "unable" to use an action during your turn.
None of the rules text states that a character who becomes stunned during their turn loses any actions at all. The only things we know are the following:
1. You can't act while Stunned.
2. When you Regain Actions, reduce that number of actions by your stunned value, then reduce your stunned value by a commensurate amount.
3. If you become Stunned during your turn, you don't immediately lose actions. You are simply prevented from using them.
I think this is a case of unclear intention. Stunned has 2 effects. It reduces the number of actions you regain, so this sentence applies here. But it also clearly states that you can't act while stunned.
So this clause clearly applies.
There is 0 evidence that you should reduce a character's actions mid turn because they become Stunned. And this is not that awkward of a situation, there are hazards and snares that inflict stunned.
The only logical way to apply stunned is as it is written. When you become stunned, you can't act. So you can't use actions you already have. When you are stunned and you regain actions, you reduce that number by your stunned condition, then reduce stunned (unless Stunned has a duration).
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Discussion from a couple of months that covered a lot of this:
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43f05&page=last?Stunning-Fist-and-Silencin g-Strike-could-use
I don't recall any definitive conclusions being drawn (beyond being an extremely messy situation) but it did dive into a lot of the relevant rules...
Discussion from a couple of months that covered a lot of this:
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43f05&page=last?Stunning-Fist-and-Silencin g-Strike-could-use
I don't recall any definitive conclusions being drawn (beyond being an extremely messy situation) but it did dive into a lot of the relevant rules...
And from all the way back in December of 2019 we have this thread that also did not have a definite conclusion as far as I know.
This is a well tread topic. I read Stunned to be immediately impactful and severe, even when talking about Stunned 1 from Power Word Stun.
Others read it to be, in my opinion at least, a strictly worse Slowed, given that Slowed always has a duration and will almost always remove more actions than any given Stunned effect over time.
My .02 cents anyway.
Basically stunned for a duration, is played differently to stunned for X actions. The rules are inconsistent until you realise this.
The rules whould have been a lot better is they had created different names or just been more explicit about it.
