With the release of the video game Wrath of the Righteous the fact the game allowed magical vestments to stack with enchanted armor lead to a discussion on the discord where everyone knows this shouldn't stack, but a question of whether mage armor and magical vestments could stack. I initially said no because mage armor is not armor, it's a field of force that gives an armor bonus. This person however insisted that if you used it on your clothes it would then stack. This seems wrong to me as all mentions of enhancement bonuses say they improve the armor(or shield, or weapon) by the enhancement amount and that adding +5 to armor inscreases the *armor bonus* and is not added as it's own *enhancement bonus* to AC. Which I cited that if enhancement bonus was an AC bonus type that a +5 shield and +5 armor would not stack the +5 bonuses but it is intended for them to stack. To which they said *armor enhancement* and *shield enhancement* are different bonuses. However there is no text on the SRD or that I can find in my PDF that mentions these phrases at all. The text on the SRD says:
An enhancement bonus represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack. Only the highest enhancement bonus applies. Since enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor’s bonus to AC, they don’t apply against touch attacks.
This indicates to me that the player does not receive the enhancement bonus but the item does in the case of armor, shields and weapons. The only enhancement bonus the player receives is to ability scores
So magical vestments on your clothes would not stack with mage armor as both are armor bonuses when translated into bonuses to AC
Also in the same vein, could you apply an enhancement bonus to bracers of armor?
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1) Mage armor is a separate effect that doesn't touch your garments or armor. Magical vestment is applied on your armor, shield, or garments. They don't interact.
2) Body slots:
Armor: suits of armor.
Body: robes and vestments.
Chest: mantles, shirts, and vests.
They are 3 different slots, so you can have an armor, a robe, and a shirt.
Stacking the effects depend on what kind of benefit they give. If the armor has an armor enhancement and the vestment has a sacred bonus to AC, they stack without any problem.
1) Mage armor is a separate effect that doesn't touch your garments or armor. Magical vestment is applied on your armor, shield, or garments. They don't interact.
2) Body slots:
Armor: suits of armor.
Body: robes and vestments.
Chest: mantles, shirts, and vests.They are 3 different slots, so you can have an armor, a robe, and a shirt.
Stacking the effects depend on what kind of benefit they give. If the armor has an armor enhancement and the vestment has a sacred bonus to AC, they stack without any problem.
Magic Vestment is a spell which reads:
You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level).
An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell.
Mage Armor and Magic Vestment stack with each other because they're different bonus types.
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Mage Armor = +4 Armor Bonus
Magic Vestment on normal clothes = +0 Armor Bonus +5 Enhancement bonus
= +9 AC, because the armor bonus of Mage Armor and Enhancement bonus of Magic Vestment stack.
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Mage Armor = +4 Armor Bonus
Magic Vestment on Haramaki = +1 Armor Bonus +5 Enhancement bonus
still = +9 AC, because the +1 armor bonus from Haramaki and +4 armor bonus from Mage armor overlap but do not stack.
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Mage Armor = +4 Armor Bonus
Magic Vestment on normal clothes = +0 Armor Bonus +5 Enhancement bonus
Magic Vestment on buckler = +1 shield bonus +5 Enhancement bonus
= +15 AC, because these all stack with each other.
Strictly by RAW, you are correct. Mage Armor and Magic Vestment do not stack. However, it isn’t unreasonable for the two to be allowed to stack.
Mage Armor creates an intangible field of force that provides an armor bonus. Magic Vestment grants an Enhancement bonus to a suit of armor and clothing is treated as armor with +0 AC. When calculating your AC enhancement bonuses are counted as part of the armor or shield they are tied to, meaning +4 Armor from Mage armor & +5 Armor from magic vestment totals +5 Armor to AC.
To clarify. Enhancement bonuses apply to the item, not you. The Armor bonus from the item is increased by the enhancement bonus when calculating your AC. A +5 Haramaki is a +6 Armor bonus to YOUR AC.
Strictly by RAW, you are correct. Mage Armor and Magic Vestment do not stack. However, it isn’t unreasonable for the two to be allowed to stack.
Mage Armor creates an intangible field of force that provides an armor bonus. Magic Vestment grants an Enhancement bonus to a suit of armor and clothing is treated as armor with +0 AC. When calculating your AC enhancement bonuses are counted as part of the armor or shield they are tied to, meaning +4 Armor from Mage armor & +5 Armor from magic vestment totals +5 Armor to AC.
To clarify. Enhancement bonuses apply to the item, not you. The Armor bonus from the item is increased by the enhancement bonus when calculating your AC. A +5 Haramaki is a +6 Armor bonus to YOUR AC.
This is exactly what I thought it was, the wording certainly seems to me that it clearly states that enhancement bonuses apply to the armor, not the player, but this person insisted otherwise and I wanted other's opinions
I think I'm outnumbered here, so consider these two examples:
If you have Ghost Touch Studded Leather (+3 Armor bonus) with Magic Vestment (+5 Enhancement Bonus), and also have a Mage Armor (+4 Armor bonus) effect active, what is your AC vs a Corporeal enemy who is swinging a corporeal weapon?
If you have Ghost Touch Studded Leather (+3 Armor bonus) with Magic Vestment (+5 Enhancement Bonus), and also have a Mage Armor (+4 Armor bonus) effect active, what is your AC vs an Incorporeal enemy who is swinging an incorporeal weapon?
In both cases, I would argue that your AC is 4MageArmor + 5Enhancement = 19AC, and that's because the Armor Bonus from Mage Armor > Studded Leather.
I think I'm outnumbered here, so consider these two examples:
If you have Studded Leather (+3 Armor bonus) with Magic Vestment (+5 Enhancement Bonus), and also has a Mage Armor (+4 Armor bonus) effect active, what is his AC vs a Corporeal enemy who is swinging a corporeal weapon?
If you have Studded Leather (+3 Armor bonus) with Magic Vestment (+5 Enhancement Bonus), and also has a Mage Armor (+4 Armor bonus) effect active, what is his AC vs an Incorporeal enemy who is swinging an incorporeal weapon?
Vs Corporeal they would get the +8 Armor from the enhanced studded leather.
Vs incorporeal they would only get the +4 from Mage Armor.
Furthermore if they had their studded leather enchanted with Ghost Touch then Mage Armor would be rendered completely unnecessary.
I think I'm outnumbered here, so consider these two examples:
If you have Studded Leather (+3 Armor bonus) with Magic Vestment (+5 Enhancement Bonus), and also has a Mage Armor (+4 Armor bonus) effect active, what is his AC vs a Corporeal enemy who is swinging a corporeal weapon?
If you have Studded Leather (+3 Armor bonus) with Magic Vestment (+5 Enhancement Bonus), and also has a Mage Armor (+4 Armor bonus) effect active, what is his AC vs an Incorporeal enemy who is swinging an incorporeal weapon?
Vs Corporeal they would get the +8 Armor from the enhanced studded leather.
Vs incorporeal they would only get the +4 from Mage Armor.
Furthermore if they had their studded leather enchanted with Ghost Touch then Mage Armor would be rendered completely unnecessary.
I edited it to add Ghost Touch enchantment to the armor.
I edited it to add Ghost Touch enchantment to the armor.I think I'm outnumbered here, so consider these two examples:
If you have Studded Leather (+3 Armor bonus) with Magic Vestment (+5 Enhancement Bonus), and also has a Mage Armor (+4 Armor bonus) effect active, what is his AC vs a Corporeal enemy who is swinging a corporeal weapon?
If you have Studded Leather (+3 Armor bonus) with Magic Vestment (+5 Enhancement Bonus), and also has a Mage Armor (+4 Armor bonus) effect active, what is his AC vs an Incorporeal enemy who is swinging an incorporeal weapon?
Vs Corporeal they would get the +8 Armor from the enhanced studded leather.
Vs incorporeal they would only get the +4 from Mage Armor.
Furthermore if they had their studded leather enchanted with Ghost Touch then Mage Armor would be rendered completely unnecessary.
And I had already accounted for a ghost touch… with Ghost Touch on the armor, Mage Armor does nothing at all. You still only get the +8 from the enhanced Studded leather.
Let’s try looking at it this way…
You decide to wear a +5 ghost touched Studded Leather Armor and a suit of Masterwork Full Plate overtop of it. What is your AC?
Let’s try looking at it this way…
You decide to wear a +5 ghost touched Studded Leather Armor and a suit of Masterwork Full Plate overtop of it. What is your AC?
I see your point, the answer would be:
Vs Corporeal: 19, because FP > Studded Leather
Vs Incorporeal: 18, because FP is bypassed entirely.
But that's overlapping two sets of mundane (albeit magically enchanted) armor.
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So... what about this:
You wear a +1 ghost touched non-studded Leather Armor (+2 Armor +1 enchantment) and a Mage Armor spell. Now the Mage Armor works again.
You wear a +3 ghost touched non-studded Leather Armor (+2 Armor +3 enchantment) and a Mage Armor spell. Now the Mage Armor doesn't work anymore.
This is a little goofy, tbh.
The text on the SRD says:
An enhancement bonus represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack. Only the highest enhancement bonus applies. Since enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor’s bonus to AC, they don’t apply against touch attacks.
This is not part of the Pathfinder rules. The whole table d20pfsrd.com has for bonus types is copied from the 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide.
That said, PF has a rule that does the same thing:
"Enhancement bonuses apply to your armor to increase the armor bonus it provides." CRB pg. 179
This really leaves no room for differing interpretations. 100% of the bonus provided to the character by an armor with an enhancetment bonus is an armor bonus. A Studded Leather with a +2 enchantment is not a +3 armor bonus to the character's AC plus a +2 enhancement bonus to the character's AC, but rather a +5 armor bonus to the character's AC.
This is not part of the Pathfinder rules. The whole table d20pfsrd.com has for bonus types is copied from the 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide.
That said, PF has a rule that does the same thing:
"Enhancement bonuses apply to your armor to increase the armor bonus it provides." CRB pg. 179This really leaves no room for differing interpretations. 100% of the bonus provided to the character by an armor with an enhancetment bonus is an armor bonus. A Studded Leather with a +2 enchantment is not a +3 armor bonus to the character's AC plus a +2 enhancement bonus to the character's AC, but rather a +5 armor bonus to the character's AC.
Thank you for the clarification. I suppose I should have pulled up the pdf of the book and made sure what it said on specific. I think those 3.5 rules work functionally the same, but the better wording here gets rid of any confusion. Thanks a lot
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One oddity I recently ran across is the Blood Armor spell text:
Your blood becomes as hard as iron upon contact with air. Each time you take at least 5 points of piercing or slashing damage, your armor gains a +1 enhancement bonus to your AC.As written, this spell grants an Enchancement Bonus to your AC rather than your Armor An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell.This line clearly indicates (to me, at least) that the enhancement bonus is intended to be applied to the armor/clothes you are wearing, but RAW this line seems to be a non-sequitur. This enhancement bonus stacks with itself, but not with an existing enhancement bonus, to a maximum enhancement bonus of +5.
Since I don't believe there are any other effects that grant an enhancement bonus directly to you AC, this part of the spell text seems to confirm the bonus is intended to be applied to the armor/clothes you are wearing and the term 'AC' was erroneously used instead of 'armor' in the first part of the spell text.
As for the original question, a helpful way to look at this is to consider the combination of a +1 shield and +1 Armor: The enhancement bonus on the shield effectively 'stacks' with the enhancement bonus on the shirt because they are actually buffing your shield and armor respectively rather than directly buffing your actual AC.
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1) Mage armor is a separate effect that doesn't touch your garments or armor. Magical vestment is applied on your armor, shield, or garments. They don't interact.
2) Body slots:
Armor: suits of armor.
Body: robes and vestments.
Chest: mantles, shirts, and vests.They are 3 different slots, so you can have an armor, a robe, and a shirt.
Stacking the effects depend on what kind of benefit they give. If the armor has an armor enhancement and the vestment has a sacred bonus to AC, they stack without any problem.
Magic Vestment is a spell which reads:
You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level).
An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell.
For the purpose of this spell, not for all purposes.
One oddity I recently ran across is the Blood Armor spell text:
Your blood becomes as hard as iron upon contact with air. Each time you take at least 5 points of piercing or slashing damage, your armor gains a +1 enhancement bonus to your AC.
If we change what we are emphasizing, we see there isn't actually a conflict.
What's extraneous is the word your in: "...+1 enhancement bonus to your AC." Gramatically the sentance doesn't even really make sense with that your in there. Your armor gains a bonus to your AC? Which is it, the armor is gaining a bonus, or you personally are gaining a bonus?
As per the rest of the spell description, the bonus gained does not stack with an existing bonus an armor has. So a +3 armor would be better than/equal to you taking 5 points of damage 3 times. But if you take 5 damage a 4th time, now the spells enhancement is better than the armors enhancement and your overall AC goes up by 1.
Let’s try looking at it this way…
You decide to wear a +5 ghost touched Studded Leather Armor and a suit of Masterwork Full Plate overtop of it. What is your AC?
I see your point, the answer would be:
Vs Corporeal: 19, because FP > Studded Leather
Vs Incorporeal: 18, because FP is bypassed entirely.
But that's overlapping two sets of mundane (albeit magically enchanted) armor.
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So... what about this:
You wear a +1 ghost touched non-studded Leather Armor (+2 Armor +1 enchantment) and a Mage Armor spell. Now the Mage Armor works again.
You wear a +3 ghost touched non-studded Leather Armor (+2 Armor +3 enchantment) and a Mage Armor spell. Now the Mage Armor doesn't work anymore.
This is a little goofy, tbh.
It may seem goofy, but that is how it works. What makes you think that the rules for wearing multiple suits of armor function any differently when mage armor enters the picture? If Mage armor were to inherit the enhancement bonus of an underlying set of armor (or enhanced clothing) then for what reason wouldn’t a suit of full plate inherit the enhancement bonus from an underlying set of enchanted armor? Even if you were to flip the order around and put the enchanted armor on the outside it doesn’t change. The armor with the higher bonus takes precedence. And as per the rules enhancement bonuses are applied to the armor itself to calculate the final armor bonus that is applied to your AC. So a suit of +5 Studded Leather is a +8 armor bonus, not a +3 armor bonus and a +5 Enhancement bonus.