|
I've been thinking about the lore of Baba Yaga and how she defeated an entire country in 1 day by herself. Even allowing for Mythic Power (we have her stats) and the fact countries in Golarion are smaller than many today I'm not sure how you'd go about this. So I'm looking for theories and guessses of how a lvl 20 witch/MR 10 Archmage Baba Yaga would conquer an entire country in one day.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not sure where you got your information, but according to the wiki it looks like you got nearly all those details wrong.
the Witch Queen Baba Yaga invaded the Linnorm Kingdom of Raemerrund and the Djurstor Confederacy from over the Winterwall Glacier, bringing with her an army of ice trolls, cold fey, frost giants, white dragons, and other evil creatures. King Jarguut and the thanes of the Confederacy were too divided and weakened to offer any serious resistance, and the Winter War ended in the defeat of the Ulfen forces in only 23 days.
|
|
I'm not sure where you got your information, but according to the wiki it looks like you got nearly all those details wrong.
the Witch Queen Baba Yaga invaded the Linnorm Kingdom of Raemerrund and the Djurstor Confederacy from over the Winterwall Glacier, bringing with her an army of ice trolls, cold fey, frost giants, white dragons, and other evil creatures. King Jarguut and the thanes of the Confederacy were too divided and weakened to offer any serious resistance, and the Winter War ended in the defeat of the Ulfen forces in only 23 days.
I am sure that read differently when I looked at it though admitedly it has been years. Oh well that makes a lot more sense thanks, she had an army and it still took nearly a month.
I guess it's also worth noting that Baba Yaga is a figure from folklore, not a Paizo specific creature. It's entirely possible there's a story from another game - or even a story from the real world - that more closely matches what you said.
Oh! Maybe you were thinking of RAZMIR?
Just good old fashion trickery.
There are people in the real world who have convinced huge groups of people of their divinity and formed cults. Entire civilizations have worshipped pantheons that we would all scoff at . Heck, in North Korea they think of Kim Jong Un as divine .
You don't need magic to rule the world through deception. I'd wager everyone on this forum can remember at least one politician in their own country who got there by dishonest means.
Also, RAZMIRAN PRIEST. It helps when the ruling classes are spreading your lies.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In a dictatorship many people keep their heads down and focus on their personal life. They don't necessarily believe what the dictator is telling them, but they know this person is way more powerful than them, so they pay lip service. For a commoner, it doesn't make much of a difference whether you offend a dictator or a deity - both are in a position to make their life miserable. Or to end it.
Truth is a noble and important thing, but there are more basic needs that need to be covered first: Food, shelter, personal safety etc.. That's one reason why people follow obvious liars - they don't care too much, as long as they trust the liar to help with their more basic needs.
Oh man, these are just some of my favorite things.
I love Baba Yaga, and that she exists in Pathfinder. I don't really have any plans on ever using her, unless I run the RoW AP, but it pleases me she is present with her creepy hut, too.
Looking at her conquest of the Ulfen lands, it looks like they folded without a fight... just like the Nazis took Poland in a similar timeframe (what, 35 days?).
And Razmir. I absolutely love Razmir. He did it, he actually did it. Plenty of characters have joked about it over the course of their careers, but Razmir went ahead tricked the world into worshipping him. It's hilarious. You have to give the dude credit. The story of his success should be an inspiration to aspiring young minds everywhere.
It's like Pinky and the Brain, but Brain actually took over the world...
Maybe
On the subject of Razmiran I would like to know what he used to wipe out a city and how he's powerful enough to fool people into thinking he's a God in a world with powerful wizards like Tar Baphon or Baba Yaga.
A 19th level wizard can do a lot of things we attribute to Gods in folklore. Creating food, parting seas, creating life, creating his own dimension, changing the weather, making your crops grow etc etc etc.
The CR on Tar Baphon and Baba Yaga make them equivalent to Empyreal Lords or Demon Lords so you can definitively say "These are mortal/unmortal demigods."
Maybe
On the subject of Razmiran I would like to know what he used to wipe out a city and how he's powerful enough to fool people into thinking he's a God in a world with powerful wizards like Tar Baphon or Baba Yaga.
A 19th level wizard can do a lot of things we attribute to Gods in folklore. Creating food, parting seas, creating life, creating his own dimension, changing the weather, making your crops grow etc etc etc.
The CR on Tar Baphon and Baba Yaga make them equivalent to Empyreal Lords or Demon Lords so you can definitively say "These are mortal/unmortal demigods."
A 19th level Wizard throwing fireballs at a city... all night. Game over, man. Game over.
I had a Morrowind character that got completely fed up with the Ordinators of Molag Mar calling me "Scum"... so I put on my equisite ring of levitation, hovered above the city, and dropped a custom made fire spell with maximum radius and maximum duration. I would come back every so often to nuke the city again, killing any auto-respawn NPC's... such as the Ordinators. Petty, but effective nonetheless. I wasn't even a Wizard, just dabbling in magic at the end of a great martial career... I found some glitch involving soul trap with a radius of 2 and duration of zero... or some such nonsense... that allowed me to permenantly jack my ability scores as high as I dared... making spells is neat. Nuking the slaver city Molag Mar over and over again... priceless.
|
|
Maybe
On the subject of Razmiran I would like to know what he used to wipe out a city and how he's powerful enough to fool people into thinking he's a God in a world with powerful wizards like Tar Baphon or Baba Yaga.
A 19th level wizard can do a lot of things we attribute to Gods in folklore. Creating food, parting seas, creating life, creating his own dimension, changing the weather, making your crops grow etc etc etc.
The CR on Tar Baphon and Baba Yaga make them equivalent to Empyreal Lords or Demon Lords so you can definitively say "These are mortal/unmortal demigods."
I do like the idea of high level mythic characters being on par with Empyreal Lords/Demon Princes though I don't think the mechanics support it.
Maybe
On the subject of Razmiran I would like to know what he used to wipe out a city and how he's powerful enough to fool people into thinking he's a God in a world with powerful wizards like Tar Baphon or Baba Yaga.
A 19th level wizard can do a lot of things we attribute to Gods in folklore. Creating food, parting seas, creating life, creating his own dimension, changing the weather, making your crops grow etc etc etc.
The CR on Tar Baphon and Baba Yaga make them equivalent to Empyreal Lords or Demon Lords so you can definitively say "These are mortal/unmortal demigods."
A 19th level Wizard throwing fireballs at a city... all night. Game over, man. Game over.
I had a Morrowind character that got completely fed up with the Ordinators of Molag Mar calling me "Scum"... so I put on my equisite ring of levitation, hovered above the city, and dropped a custom made fire spell with maximum radius and maximum duration. I would come back every so often to nuke the city again, killing any auto-respawn NPC's... such as the Ordinators. Petty, but effective nonetheless. I wasn't even a Wizard, just dabbling in magic at the end of a great martial career... I found some glitch involving soul trap with a radius of 2 and duration of zero... or some such nonsense... that allowed me to permenantly jack my ability scores as high as I dared... making spells is neat. Nuking the slaver city Molag Mar over and over again... priceless.
You don't get that many 3rd level spells generally speaking to throw them all night much less wipe out a city.
It's a River Kingdom city, so it's not like a "real" city... the River Kingdoms sit at the kids' table. Lol. Or at least any time they [the River Kingdoms] are not united (willing or not) under the flag of Choral Rogarvia.
Anyways, it is said that Razmir summoned a terrible cloud of fire, which sounds more like Incendiary Cloud than Fireball(s)... however, the Cluster Bomb shenanigans sounds quite fitting for destroying a city.
19th level Wizard could easily afford to dedicate a handful of their higher level slots for such a spell with the intent of making a point and razing a city to the ground. Still have plenty of lower level slots to fill with other horrible things to finish off anyone left standing before sunrise. A few 20' high, 40' wide clouds of fire rolling through the city will wipe out most commoners and probably structures given there's nobody left to put out the fire(s). A few Fireballs for the city guards that survived the clouds.
Home in time for breakfast...
What can a mundane city do against a high level Wizard?
As the Duke of the city, you have the power to fold, to submit, to save everyone at the expense of your own pride and position.
As a citizen of the city, you can beg of your Duke to meet the terms of surrender. You can rally outside his bedroom chamber, chanting in unison that he not doom us all. You can turn that pitchfork and torches posse against the Duke, removing him from the position of choice... then someone else can fold to the Wizard's demands.
Thrice times Razmir gave Duke Melcat a chance to fold, and thrice times Razmir was refused. Swallow your d@mn pride, pack up your life savings hidden in your matress, and freaking fold. Your time as Duke is over, but the city still exists... the people looking up to you for protextion and guidance are not roasted corpses.
You know how easy it is to start an entirely new kingdom in the River Kingdom? Easy-peasy... go to Oleg's trading post, talk to him or his wife about their bandit problem. Duke Melcat's experience would have been welcomed anywhere, and the people loyal to Melcat could have left with him any time after Aerduin fell to Razmir. Literally just move away AFTER you save everyone. Any self-respecting kingdom would adore Melcat for saving the citizens of his city at the expense of his crown. He would be welcomed into high courts for his solid choice making.
What can a mundane city do against a wizard?
I swear I wrote an answer to this last night =P
The answer depends on the city, and depends on the Wizard.
At level 19 a Wizard is very powerful indeed. But if he was even a few levels lower you've got a much better chance of telling that Wizard to go jump.
Not every town or village has a spellcaster of sufficient level to cast any spell. In general, you must travel to a small town (or larger settlement) to be reasonably assured of finding a spellcaster capable of casting 1st-level spells, a large town for 2nd-level spells, a small city for 3rd- or 4thlevel spells, a large city for 5th- or 6th-level spells, and a metropolis for 7th- or 8th-level spells. Even a metropolis isn’t guaranteed to have a local spellcaster able to cast 9th-level spells.
And how big are those settlements?
Thorp: Fewer than 20
Hamlet: 21-60
Village: 61-200
Small town: 201-2,000 -- 1st level spells
Large town: 2,001-5,000 -- 2nd level spells
Small city: 5,001-10,000 -- 3rd or 4th level spells
Large city: 10,001-25,000 -- 5th or 6th level spells
Metropolis: More than 25,000 -- 7th or 8th level spells
So if Razmir had shown up 6 levels earlier they could have thrown him out. Or if he'd shown up to the gates of Absalom and demanded fealty he would probably have been laughed out of town .
Razmir so thoroughly nuked Aerduin that there is no written records that remain of its population numbers or tax records.
You might be able to find records of other River Kingdoms' populations circa 17 Erastus 4661 AR, but I cannot find anything definite for Aerduin. We do know that Duke Melcat was (and his ghost probably still is) only level 7... so whatever size city is ruled by someone of such stature. Even if Duke Melcat was a Wizard, which he wasn't (and his ghost isn't now), he would have a couple 4th level spells.
So, according to that nifty table, a "small city" could afford an equal caster to Duke Melcat... if he was a Wizard, which he wasn't. Thus, my assumption is that Aerduin was smaller still than even a "small city".
Well the ruling classes don't always have character levels appropriate to their station, so there's a good chance there was someone higher level than him around. Having said that, as people pointed out earlier the River Kindoms aren't exactly the hub of the world, so chances are pretty good there was no one even approaching Razmir's level around.
Razmir's success is due partly to his power, but more to how he played his hand.
He's a big fish, so he found a small pond. Then in order to quiet dissenters he crushed his first opponent. Now that he's established himself as the biggest and baddest, and shown what happens to people who challenge him, he sets about spreading misinformation and promoting a culture of paranoia and ignorance. The people are fractured, so less likely to unite against him, and the rumours abound as to his actual power. If people don't know how powerful he is they can't mount an appropriate response .
On top of all this horrible stuff, we add temperance . The Whispering Tyrant was worlds ahead of Razmir , but those under his rule could expect death and THEN slavery . This meant that the people he conquered had no choice but to fight him. When you make enemies of everyone eventually you meet someone tough enough to be a problem. Razmir stopped just short of this , giving people a very real reason to accept his rule .
All in all, Razmir chose his target well, and didn't over-reach. One thing Razmir seems to know is his own limitations.
|
|
Well the ruling classes don't always have character levels appropriate to their station, so there's a good chance there was someone higher level than him around. Having said that, as people pointed out earlier the River Kindoms aren't exactly the hub of the world, so chances are pretty good there was no one even approaching Razmir's level around.
Razmir's success is due partly to his power, but more to how he played his hand.
He's a big fish, so he found a small pond. Then in order to quiet dissenters he crushed his first opponent. Now that he's established himself as the biggest and baddest, and shown what happens to people who challenge him, he sets about spreading misinformation and promoting a culture of paranoia and ignorance. The people are fractured, so less likely to unite against him, and the rumours abound as to his actual power. If people don't know how powerful he is they can't mount an appropriate response .
On top of all this horrible stuff, we add temperance . The Whispering Tyrant was worlds ahead of Razmir , but those under his rule could expect death and THEN slavery . This meant that the people he conquered had no choice but to fight him. When you make enemies of everyone eventually you meet someone tough enough to be a problem. Razmir stopped just short of this , giving people a very real reason to accept his rule .
All in all, Razmir chose his target well, and didn't over-reach. One thing Razmir seems to know is his own limitations.
He does rather remind of the Nazi's to be honest. Similar Blitzkrieg then absorb they used at the begining first he takes over a kingdom then one by one he eliminates and absorbs neighbouring ones expanding his own but avoiding an alliance against him as "I've stopped this time, really honest I have." and one one wants to take that first step against him because they can't be sure of allies and are too weak to achieve anything except being the next absorbed kingdom if they go it alone.
Of course then Tar woke up and there's no Abadar to stop him this time so who know's where things would go from there. Interestingly Razmir either because of the approaching mortality, suddenly having a more powerful super power neighbour or just because someone stabbed him in his sleep and put on his mask seems to be going insane.
Razmir quite possibly, although I'm not sure if it has ever actually been confirmed, might have an allience with Tar-Baphon. A tribute of 1000 corpses per month was demanded, and no one knows if Razmir agreed... but Tar-Baphon has seemed to leave Razmir alone ever since.
Speaking of the Undead... it is said that Duke Melcat's ghost is assembling an army of undead from the ruins of Aerduin to seek revenge. But not everyone turned to Undead, so his ghost will never have more numbers than he did when they were alive... and if you provided absolutely no resistance at full strength, a rag-tag posse of zombies isn't going to do anything now. Razmir hasn't gotten any weaker. Lol.
Even if Melcat's ghost shows up with an army of Undead, I am quite confident in Razmir's many arcane priests' abilities to deal with such a sad horde. They [Melcat's little army] will assemble, and deliver themselves to be roasted again. Or Melcat's ghost and his army of Undead will be Commanded into Razmir's service against their Will. Donated to Tar-Baphon in next month's allotment... they're already Undead, saved you a step in process, you're welcome.
|
|
Razmir quite possibly, although I'm not sure if it has ever actually been confirmed, might have an allience with Tar-Baphon. A tribute of 1000 corpses per month was demanded, and no one knows if Razmir agreed... but Tar-Baphon has seemed to leave Razmir alone ever since.
Speaking of the Undead... it is said that Duke Melcat's ghost is assembling an army of undead from the ruins of Aerduin to seek revenge. But not everyone turned to Undead, so his ghost will never have more numbers than he did when they were alive... and if you provided absolutely no resistance at full strength, a rag-tag posse of zombies isn't going to do anything now. Razmir hasn't gotten any weaker. Lol.
Even if Melcat's ghost shows up with an army of Undead, I am quite confident in Razmir's many arcane priests' abilities to deal with such a sad horde. They [Melcat's little army] will assemble, and deliver themselves to be roasted again. Or Melcat's ghost and his army of Undead will be Commanded into Razmir's service against their Will. Donated to Tar-Baphon in next month's allotment... they're already Undead, saved you a step in process, you're welcome.
The important part of that is how long Tar Baphon intends to leave Razmir alone. One advantage of being immortal is you can literally go "Hmm I could conquer him or I can just let him die of old age while I deal with this actual threat." (not lastwall any more sadly).
As powerful as Tar Baphon is, he actually has a difficult time pinning Razmir down and finishing him. Razmir is better off as a tenuous ally than an abject enemy and Tar Baphon needs all the Not-Enemies he can get since everyone alive hates him.
|
|
As powerful as Tar Baphon is, he actually has a difficult time pinning Razmir down and finishing him. Razmir is better off as a tenuous ally than an abject enemy and Tar Baphon needs all the Not-Enemies he can get since everyone alive hates him.
I didn't get the impression anyone was left to challenge him as anyone interested was eliminated and anyone strong enough wasn't interested.
