Hey all,
I was thinking about famous Thaumaturge's in popular culture, and one of the ones I was thinking about was Dean Winchester.
And one of the issues I was having with seeing Dean as a Thaumaturge was that the only Implement that really made sense for him was the Weapon Implement.
But then I had an epiphany!
Dean's Implement is of course his 1967 Cheverolet Impala (or even more specifically the Radio/music).
So that got me thinking:
"What other types of implements do you want to see out of the Thaumaturge?"
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd like a bone implement representing mortality and being an activated debuff implement.
A mask representing deception and giving a passive stealth bonus and perhaps a permanent concealment (though maybe a bit weaker) later on.
Those are 2 I can think of off the top of my head.
Edit: Oh! This one is a stretch but what about a companion/lesser eidelon from a chain implement or something like that? Could fill in for another of the 2 missing passives.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Not so much a "want to" as a "this seems like it woudl fit", and then maybe people run with it...
"Dog" feels like it could easily be an implement, honestly. Hunting down the Beast with Crossbow, Lantern, and Dog feels very iconic.
"Pouch" - in particular, a pouch full of powder or dust used for dispelling magics and illusions, and warding against spirits and magical creatures.
"censer" - something that you use to carry around some sort of burning pungent thing that lets out aromatic smoke, rather than light. Probably some sort of "Activate for an ongoing effect, recharge at refocus" thing, with other powers requiring that the censer be burning.
"Bell, Book, and Candle" is a time-honored trio for warding and banishing (among other things). Of those, Lantern covers for Candle pretty well, but we don't have either of the other two. So... musical instruments and/or other noisemakers have often served in implement-like roles, and might be reasonable for a focus on removing the target's actions. Reciting from a time or similar written work is also a classic, and might well lend itself to things like mobility debuffs
Something directly representing a pact that you have, that lets you channel the power of that pact in some useful way. If an angel grants you a feather, then that feather has power in your hands, driven by the direct and freely given connection between you. Call it "token" or something.
...and, taking a hint from the preceding poster... skulls. Skulls seem like a heck of an implement, all things considered, though I'm not entirely sure what they'd be used for in particular. It would certainly add a darker theme to the thaumaturge. Of course, it might also work as a token - if you'd made a pact with a ghost or specter of some sort and they'd chosen to allow you to have their skull as a mark (and enabler) of it.
...which leads to an interesting point, as based on the fluff I've seen, certain thaumaturges really ought to be way out in front trying to communicate with, make peace with, and make deals with supernatural entities. Like, by at least some of the fluff, the role of the non-adventuring thaumaturge would be to go around forging connections between the people and the local "spirits" (ie, whatever magical creatures there might be in the area) so that they can find a way to peacefully coexist. First, they really ought to have some way to support that mechanically that goes beyond "You have lots of charisma, but are chronically skill-starved". Second, once you give them that rules support, you're likely to see a number of places in various adventures where the Thaumaturge is trying to take a third option... with all the hilarity that brings with it.
Unfortunately, there's only six harrow suits, but Hammer (weapon implement), Key, Shield, Book, Star (lantern implement), Crown.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Weapon is Fighter, Amulet is Champion, Lantern is a caster based on Divination, Chalice is a Cleric, Wand is a caster based on Blasting.
We need Rogue = skills. Could be a Tome, a Keyring.
Monk = mobility. Could be a Fan.
Druid = change shape. Could be a Mirror or a Mask.
I see Lantern as Rogue. It gives you Trapfinding-ish.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I have gotta say Fan, Mask, Book, and Skull are all really cool ideas.
It would be a lot cooler if each implement had its own way to exact a different result from EA, like an alternative to the weakness (dazzle for lantern, frightened for mask, etc.)
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I have gotta say Fan, Mask, Book, and Skull are all really cool ideas.
It would be a lot cooler if each implement had its own way to exact a different result from EA, like an alternative to the weakness (dazzle for lantern, frightened for mask, etc.)
I like this idea very much.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I like this idea very much.I have gotta say Fan, Mask, Book, and Skull are all really cool ideas.
It would be a lot cooler if each implement had its own way to exact a different result from EA, like an alternative to the weakness (dazzle for lantern, frightened for mask, etc.)
In general, I feel like the different implements could handle playstyles a little better.
Action economy is a very specific way to add a dynamic to a Thaumaturge, but the way they currently are it feels like taking advantage of the action economy they provide is about the only way to differentiate a Thaumaturge from another Thaumaturge (outside just general feat selection of course).
And in the case of Lantern, there is no real action economy and for Weapon and Amulet it's a non-character directed action economy (trigger-based).
That does help them feel somewhat distinct in nature, but it's rather shallow, and I've said it before but initial implement selection feels pretty empty. Not saying it needs to come with a lot of baggage, but a bonus Skill Feat or other ribbon would feel pretty nice to go with the Implements as a concept to help reinforce the differentiation between Thaumaturge's.
Since EA/FF seems to be the primary battle mechanic for the Class and it already has to compete with the action economy related to Chalice and Wand, a specific kind of Debuff as an alternative option for the Weakness would feel pretty good (heck, drop giving weaknesses to random mooks without actual weaknesses entirely and give them the "alternative" option for that IMO).
In general, Implements are taking a backseat to the EA/FF in terms of importance of mechanics to the concept, and I really feel like that's a bit backwards.
Not to mention, when I think of a Thaumaturge I definitely think of a "debuffer" of sorts, so it only makes sense to be able to apply some kind of option that maybe isn't a weakness, especially if the context is the Thaumaturge wants to enable their teammates to gain the benefits of their actions.
Enemies getting weakness to all your allies attacks would be way too strong, but if you chose Dazzled instead of Weakness so your Rogue could use the concealed condition to Sneak attack? That not only seems reasonable, it fits pretty well thematically with Thaumaturge's in popular culture (even Constantine doesn't land the killing blow a lot of the time when he's running in a pack, usually he just mitigates a strength of the opponent so someone can best the foe).
Thus I thought, why not let each Implement come with an alternative mechanic to the standard EA/FF Weakness.
Amulet - The target becomes frightened 1
Chalice - The target becomes sickened 1
Lantern - The target becomes dazzled
Wand - The target becomes stupefied 1
Weapon - The target becomes flat-footed.
Now is the above perfect? Not really. Sickened 1 seems to good if we're being honest, I was just going based on themes that match the appropriate implement, but nonetheless I do think that they'd get considered as options vs. Weakness at least some of the time and at the cost of the Thaumaturge's main damage, I'm not even sure it would be overly strong.
|
|
I too think of the Thaumaturge more as a Martial debuffer. And I am a big fan of inflicting disadvantages beyond weakness, especially conditions.
But I want the Thaumaturge to also be the Martial king of versatility, even to compete with casters on this level. Like they already do for targetting any existing weakness thanks to EA.
So, I would not want the disadvantages/conditions to be linked to specific Implements that are limited choices in the Thaumaturge's career. I want those to add or deepen their abilities, not limit the versatility of their contribution in combat.
Maybe I usually want to make my opponent flat-footed but sometimes dazzled is the appropriate tactic. I would not like that option denied to me just because I did not choose the Implement that inflicts Dazzled.
Maybe I usually want to make my opponent flat-footed but sometimes dazzled is the appropriate tactic. I would not like that option denied to me just because I did not choose the Implement that inflicts Dazzled.
Given they can select implements at 5th level and the power of versatility of applicable conditions is already pretty strong, I'm not sure allowing every implement to do any Debuff is balanced.
Even Rogue who would arguably be the other martial debuffer doesn't get that level of versatility with their much higher level class ability.
In fact if we compare to the Rogue's Debilitating Strikes, they only gain two options and that's at level 9. They can pick up additional options (with respect to their Racket) via feats, but that's a level 10 Class Feat.
If we consider the initial Weakness as 1 debilitation, and they also get a Second Implement at level 5, then they are already outpacing the Rogue on "Debilitations".
In short, that would be way too strong for all of the above to be on the table. You might allow a Feat like "Unconvential Exploitation" where you can choose one of the other implement alternate options, but that's about all I could see outside the above.
That's even assuming the powerbudget isn't already where it should be. I don't think the Thaumaturge is necesssarily in a bad spot power-wise, the biggest issues it has are when the action economy is inflexible and the narrative portions people take issue with, so I'm leading with the assumption that the power budget is probably pretty close to where it should be right now (albeit even my suggestion is a boost in power because versatility translates to power in PF2).
I have gotta say Fan, Mask, Book, and Skull are all really cool ideas.
It would be a lot cooler if each implement had its own way to exact a different result from EA, like an alternative to the weakness (dazzle for lantern, frightened for mask, etc.)
Or an addition to the weakness. Because otherwise if one does give the weakness (say weapon) I'd expect that to be the one that comes up the most
Kind of like the person with the cool idea for adding in a class "pathway" based on which of the four magic tradition knowledges you focused on. You'd use that for all Find Flaws rolls (solving the skill scaling issue). In this one the Arcane one was the custom weakness and the rest did other things
Which was very cool and something I'd like to see - anything to allow further ways of customising a character.
But in that example the Arcane one just seemed better (that said it was just a suggestion from a non-game designer so balance was always at risk of being off)
I have gotta say Fan, Mask, Book, and Skull are all really cool ideas.
It would be a lot cooler if each implement had its own way to exact a different result from EA, like an alternative to the weakness (dazzle for lantern, frightened for mask, etc.)
Or an addition to the weakness. Because otherwise if one does give the weakness (say weapon) I'd expect that to be the one that comes up the most
Oh absolutely, at least 50% of the time Weakness is going to be the go to if they didn't limit it via some other method (I actually find Weakness a bit meh as a concept against things that don't actually have weaknesses like Humans). My follow up specified that weakness would be the default for everyone and then you'd gain an alternative for each implement, but yeah totally.
Kind of like the person with the cool idea for adding in a class "pathway" based on which of the four magic tradition knowledges you focused on. You'd use that for all Find Flaws rolls (solving the skill scaling issue). In this one the Arcane one was the custom weakness and the rest did other things
Yeah I'm more in favor of moving it all to Perception but that's me. A magic tradition specialty could be another angle (with access to all, but a boon when interacting with specific creatures) but the budget would have to be adjusted (Dubious Knowledge seems like the target point there if they did).