Hey! Hope you're all doing ok :D
I'm playing RotR with a group of 4 players (me included) and was planning on making a new character.
We only have access to the core rulebook and the APG, so we're very limited about what to play (in the beginning the DM didn't even allow the APG.)
Our current team is composed of :
-Rogue (very bad in combat, but can do a lot out-of-combat)
-Inquisitor (pure damage, former cleric)
-Ranger (no companion but gives nice bonuses)
-Druid (me)
I'm playing a druid with an animal companion (Ape). the Ape is carrying every encounter, we avoided 7 TPK only thanks to his presence, and we didn't finish the second chapter yet. At the same time, i've been forced into the healer/support role for the group, and god i hate that role. And my team is being demoralized by the fact that no matter what they're trying to do, a monkey alone is stronger alone than they're together.
I was first planning on making a "tag-team" summoner, but seeing how much this campaign seems to love diseases, poisons and curses, i'm having second thought.
No matter what we do, we can't get any money. (like, really, we're as wealthy as a lvl 3 PC, but we're lvl 7 and not far from lvl 8) That means relying on wands/scrolls/potions is going to be really hard.
Is rerolling as a summoner a bad idea? If so, what are my alternatives?
I'd rather sit down with your fellow players and try to upgrade their characters. Otherwise they will stay demoralized, no matter what PC you use. Some hints for them:
Rogue: Don't obsess with sneak attack, it doesn't always work. If a rogue doesn't do much damage, they can still provide a flank (works even with fighting defensively and Combat Expertise), dodge blows via total defense, demoralize with Intimidate or feint with Bluff (and Greater Feint, preferably). In general, level 8 is a nice upgrade for a rogue, thanks to BAB 6, meaning a second attack, and maybe a second off-hand attack with Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (picked up via combat trick rogue talent).
Inquisitor: Pure damage means less damage overall. The longer you stand, the more rounds you can deal damage - so some balance is helpful. Focusing rather on offense works much better than skipping defense completely.
Ranger: Make sure to study your available spells carefully. For example longstrider and barkskin are way better than charm animal and cure light wounds (as a 2nd-level spell, eew). If you don't know what you encounter today, rely on spells which are useful most of the time.
A level 7 PC should have gotten something like 24k. Assumption is that they sell some of the loot to buy other items, so they might have equipment in the magnitude of 18k. If you are really at the wealth of a level 3 PC (2k to 3k), you should talk with your GM.
I'm not sure if there'd be a big difference going from druid to summoner. Unless under-optimized, your eidolon will be at least as powerful as your ape was. And the summoner is still "support", though it can't give out the heals and status heals.
I guess you could make a summoner that doesn't rely much on the eidolon, so a summon monster build. Your summoned monsters will still possibly outshine some of your party, but at least you can help set up flanks for your rogue.
If I were in your place, I'd probably go with a summon monster summoner build. If not that, a witch could give you some offense while covering your missing healing a little.
I think the main issue isn't your class, it's your GM. Doesn't he see the other players being dissatisfied? Why doesn't he hand out more loot?
While switching to Summoner would make the group more competent in combat, it would make the "the pet is better than three PCs combined" issue only worse. Quite frankly, ape is a pretty bad animal companion, if it can overpower the others, the PCs are terribly build. Well, the Ranger and Inquisitor are, there really isn't much a book-starved cRogue can do - it's an NPC class, pure and simple.
What you need to do is talk to the GM. Tell him "I'm doing fairly well, but the other players are seriously struggling due to beign severely undergeared. Could you maybe throw us some more loot so we can catch up to what the game expects? Also, the Rogue player is not having much fun due to being useless in combat, could you allow them to switch to Unchained Rogue? You can ignore the rest of the book, and there is almost nothing new you have to learn."
If that doesn't help, either the other players should approach the GM, or you all should talk to the GM together (which works better depends on your GM's personality).
Thanks for the advices!
We frequently talk about each others builds, the rogue already changed his build but he doesn't deal any damage without sneak (he's got a minus 1 or 2 in strength and he's playing a halfling, which means small weapon). We're trying to find ways to help him with that. He's going for a Feint build now, i hope it'll work!
The ranger is on par with the ape, but got way less survivability (he's playing TWF and can deal a lot of damage, if the dices want it)
for the inquisitor it's hard to say, he rerolled recently so i can't really tell much on how it's going to go. He was trying to do a Warpriest with his cleric, but he rerolled because he couldn't do anything against bosses even with flanking and some buffs, but he seems able to take a few hits
I discussed with the DM about the money, but he said we got the money we need (we're REALLY far from 24k) and that "money flow slowly at the beginning"
To give an idea on how it's going money wise, my druid got a cloak+1 and two +1 armor (one for me, one for the Ape). had a wand of CLW but we used all 50 charges so i'll have to use what i have left to get a new one.
for the summoner, i was planning to play some kind of "tag-team" summoner, mainly strength, playing with a longspear and teamwork feats to help my team (and my eidolon) get some nice boosts.
Now i'm thinking about maybe going Holy Vindicator and build my character to help the others shine without giving up completely on the spotlight.
The GM is the "by-the-book" kind of guy, we already told him about the loot, but he doesn't change anything.
The thing with the Ape, it's that it's durable and deal consistently really good damages. The others are mainly only good at damages (except poor rogue) and even with good AC, they keep getting hit. the DM doesn't really try to focus the Ape either, and because of that the others can't really stay long enough in the fight to really shine.
About adding more books, he added the APG because we kept complaining about it.
I already told him that i was rerolling because one angry monkey is doing too much.
|
Make a GOD wizard with craft feats.
Wizards should be extra fun in RotR due to lot of wizard plots/loot.
Crafting will help with low wealth for the entire group. Crafting time could still give you problems.
A wizards needs 8 hours rest/sleep, 1 hour preparation to regain spells. So get a Ring of Sustenance and gain 6 hours extra daily to craft items.
And choose af clockwork valet familiar!
I don't remember getting a lot of downtime in RotR, but I did miss some big chunks of that AP. I imagine it varies some from GM to GM.
I still think the isue is not solved by using a different character. Of course, if you didn't really want to play a Druid in the first place, and were pressured into it because someone (the GM?) clinges to some outdated toxic "party roles" concept that says you need to have a divine full caster or whatever, then by all means you should go ahead!
The GM is the "by-the-book" kind of guy, we already told him about the loot, but he doesn't change anything.
More like "'by-some-part-of-some-book' kind of guy". "Table 12–4 lists the amount of treasure each PC is expected to have at a specific level." CRB pg. 400 That's also something 'the book' says, and the GM is blatantly ignoring it. Also, there's no way you have found/gotten all the loot in the AP.
If the players aren't having fun, and the GM isn't even trying to fix things, that's a bad GM.
I discussed with the DM about the money, but he said we got the money we need
This is clearly untrue. The game is build assuming that the PCs have spend most of their expected wealth on the so called 'big six' items: "In order to face the dangers of the game, characters in the Pathfinder RPG normally need items that grant bonuses to their statistics." PU pg. 156
About adding more books, he added the APG because we kept complaining about it.
Than complain some more! Seriously, a GM who disallows the unchained classes is either stupid, a bad GM, or a bad person. I wasn't kidding when I called the cRogue an NPC class, because that's the power level it has. A player shouldn't be punished for the writers of the CRB being to timid or understanding class balance too little. unRogue is mainly just two new abilities, so it's not that the GM needs to do a lot of reading for the class.
The thing with the Ape, it's that it's durable and deal consistently really good damages.
OK, "pretty bad" was too harsh. It's far from the best, though, and that was my point - the PCs aren't outclasses by the cream of the crop of animal companions, they're outclasses by a fairly mediocre one.
Now i'm thinking about maybe going Holy Vindicator and build my character to help the others shine without giving up completely on the spotlight.
This Holy Vindicator? I don't see how that makes any sense on a Druid...
When running an AP, you sometimes have to be careful that not all treasure is listed. Sometimes you are just told to run a type of monster, and the AP mentions nothing about its treasure. But in the monster entry it will tell you something like "treasure standard". In that case, you are supposed to be injecting your own treasure into the adventure.
For instance, if you fight generic goblins:
Treasure NPC gear (leather armor, light wooden shield, short sword, short bow with 20 arrows, other treasure)
The GM is intended to throw in some "other treasure" for that creature, appropriate for its level and type, after subtracting out the value of its listed gear.
Treasure: The exact value of the creature's treasure depends on if you're running a slow, medium, or fast game, as summarized on Table: Treasure Values per Encounter. In cases where a creature has specific magical gear assigned to it, the assumption is a medium game—if you play a fast or slow game, you'll want to adjust the monster's gear as appropriate. “Standard” treasure indicates the total value of the creature's treasure is that of a CR equal to the average party level, as listed on Table: Treasure Values per Encounter. “Double” or “triple” treasure indicates the creature has double or triple this standard value. “Incidental” indicates the creature has half this standard value, and then only within the confines of its lair. “None” indicates that the creature normally has no treasure (as is typical for an unintelligent creature that has no real lair, although such creatures are often used to guard treasures of varying amounts). “NPC gear” indicates the monster has treasure as normal for an NPC of a level equal to the monster's CR.
So, the odds are your party is low on treasure, because your GM isn't actually running things by the book. He's probably been ignoring a lot of treasure your party should have received by now.
Make a GOD wizard with craft feats.
Wizards should be extra fun in RotR due to lot of wizard plots/loot.
Crafting will help with low wealth for the entire group. Crafting time could still give you problems.
A wizards needs 8 hours rest/sleep, 1 hour preparation to regain spells. So get a Ring of Sustenance and gain 6 hours extra daily to craft items.
And choose af clockwork valet familiar!
Up till now we didn't get a lot of downtime for our character, so i don't really know if going with crafting feats is going to be worth it, but i'll ask him when i can! Sadly the clockwork valet familiar isn't going to be allowed (not in the CRB or APG).
I still think the isue is not solved by using a different character. Of course, if you didn't really want to play a Druid in the first place, and were pressured into it because someone (the GM?) clinges to some outdated toxic "party roles" concept that says you need to have a divine full caster or whatever, then by all means you should go ahead!
I wasn't planning on playing Druid at the beginning, but was kiinda pressured into it because i was told the campaign is difficult and going without a healer is really dangerous. The cleric clearly told us he wasn't going to be the healer. I'm usually playing Paladin (when i get to play, i'm usually the GM).
This Holy Vindicator? I don't see how that makes any sense on a Druid...
For the reroll, i can either keep playing as a druid and do minor changes (feats and skills in my case). Or make a completely new character that'll be introduced after the end of chapter 2.
As doing minor changes is not going to change much. I decided going with a whole new character (although i don't like this option as my character was going along with everyone) and making it a Holy Vindicator.
As for the complaining, i keep bugging him regularly, but being the only one really doing it is kinda putting me in a bad position.
I'm not even sure how it's going to go for the vindicator, the GM doesn't seem to want me to play this kind of character.
I wasn't planning on playing Druid at the beginning, but was kiinda pressured into it because i was told the campaign is difficult and going without a healer is really dangerous.
Who pressured you? Of course, in Druid is definitely not a good healer, as it lacks most of the codotion removal spells. And as for infight healing, not only is a Druid bad at that, too, it's almost always a subpar option, and thus using it actually makes the game harder.
As for the complaining, i keep bugging him regularly, but being the only one really doing it is kinda putting me in a bad position.
Which is why I suggested getting the other players on board. Suggest to the Rogue player that he say to the GM "I'm not having fun, could you allow me to rebuild as an unchained Rogue so that I don't have to switch classes?".
I'm not even sure how it's going to go for the vindicator, the GM doesn't seem to want me to play this kind of character.
Use this against him - outright tell him that you're only considerign the Holy Vindicator because he's not letting the other PCs be good enough on their own due to him not handing out enough loot and him not allowing Unchained Rogue.
Because I've seen this before - GMs thinking that only allowing few books makes the game easer for them to GM by limiting the options and lowering the power level of the PCs. But that's merely an illusion! Often enough, it results in players picking classes with higher power and more options, producing the exact opposite of what the GM was hoping for. Meanwhile, a GM doesn't even need to know all options form a book they're allowing, as they can simply review options actually selected.
Indeed, the easiest way to fix your party's problem would be for the Rogue to make a new character, e.g. a Wizard or Summoner, both vastly more powerful and game-altering than an unRogue. This is why I said "a GM who disallows the unchained classes is either stupid, a bad GM, or a bad person" - it makes the player have less fun, and makes the game harder to GM.
|
|
I agree with Derklord.
Allowing all options, but power/balance check those the players pick is far more fun and rewarding.
If the GM is conflicted about a feat/spell/ability that could be exploited, then try it out and evaluate it with all the players after a couple of games.
And generally have a talk between players and GM on what you find exciting and fun and what you would like to avoide.
When I try something new with my players or allow new options - I like getting their feedback. It is a lot of sparetime work to be a GM, and I would like it to be rewarding for all of us.
I was kinda pressured both by the GM and the other players, going druid was supposed to be enough at the time because there was a cleric in the team, even if he wasn't going to heal much, both characters should have been good enough while still allowing us to do other things.
And i was kinda right, the first part was hard, but the second chapter seemed to get easier (he didn't take any feat for his channel energy, but when you're fighting undead, it's ok).
Then he changed into an Inquisitor, as being a cleric didn't let him do what he had in mind for his character (like, at all, he was clearly getting frustrated because of that). I wanted to play a bit offensively, but i can't do it anymore with the druid because i always need to prepare multiple remove disease, lesser restoration and the likes as we always have someone getting sick or poisoned for whatever reasons (they do have a pretty bad luck on that side).
I managed to talk to him while i was writing this message.
He said ok for my reroll and he's going to allow the rogue to go unchained (the rogue is really happy about it).
For the money he didn't said much except that he'll try to do something about it.
Next game is going to be monday so we'll see how it goes!
Well, nothing changed. We reached a big city and wanted to buy some things, i had enough to buy a new wand (CLW of course), nothing else.
We "discussed" with the GM (more like everyone was complaining for at least an hour). We won't get much more, he said that it wasn't in the "spirit of the campaign" to give more money. we encountered 2 faceless stalker and only received their MW longsword, nothing more.
And i'm starting to really hate playing my druid. I don't have much use outside of combat, and fighting is REALLY boring. I just feel useless. And the monkey... is doing monkey things (and is starting to fall behind). I just really hope we'll be done soon with this chapter...
we encountered 2 faceless stalker and only received their MW longsword, nothing more.
I have to ask here: Do you search for hidden stuff? Because the house the faceless stalkers are in contains a notable amount of hidden treasure - exactly the amount of treasure a pair of faceless stalkers are supposed to have according to the CRB, actually (and that's without their swords).
We did search the house and received 2k gold from a hidden stash, nothing else.
We always search for hidden stuff. The inquisitor and ranger are both playing dwarves and are always trying to make money. Fancy cutlery? nice-looking napkin? Strangling Scarf? they take it and they sell it. The inquisitor even sold the key to enter the house because we could get some gold from it.
We had to buy a medium Wagon because we keep hoarding stuff. (We got the horses for free :D ).
That's part of the reason we're complaining, we're poor even though we're always trying to get more money.
The shopping part did show that some are way richer than the others, but no one is near 23k worth of stuff . The highest is the Ranger, who's around 15k in total. Lowest is me, with 6k, money included. (didn't get lot of loot, nothing was made for me except my armor, a +1 hide).
The 15k are actually ok:
Table 12–4 lists the amount of treasure each PC is expected to have at a specific level. (...) It is assumed that some of this treasure is consumed in the course of an adventure (such as potions and scrolls), and that some of the less useful items are sold for half value so more useful gear can be purchased.
A level 7 PC should have gotten 24k of loot (33k for level 8), and after burning some wealth for consumables and item exchange ending up with half the amount is within limits. For example cure potions are expensive, and selling a bastard sword +1 to buy a longsword +1 costs 1k.
It might be a good compromise to improve every PC to the ranger's wealth. That should feel fair, and the GM should feel safe because it's a fixed amount.
Side note: At least book 1 keeps to the wealth guidelines. I went through it and it hands out a bit more than 24k from listed creature loot. That's pretty much perfectly the WBL of four level 4 PCs (6k each). Beyond that, there are a few quest rewards and hidden treasures I didn't include. I don't think a GM should add a creature's regular loot manually.
The ranger didn't need to buy much. The Inquisitor and i are taking care of the consumables. I think the only thing he needed to buy was his armor (+1 breastplate i think), everything else comes from loot. Except for wands, we're relying on crafting to get most of our consumables.
We have the policy to give each item to the one who need it the most, and if no one is interested in an item, we're selling it then splitting equally between each member. That's the reason why i have way less. I don't call dibs on most items because i'm behind and the others often need them more (or the item simply has no uses for me).
But yeah if i had 15k i would be happy, i'd be able to get something way better for my character.
My character has in total : +1 hide and +1 studded leather (monkey), cloak of resistance+1, Wand of cure light wounds and a mundane halfling sling staff (not masterwork)and 2k gold. the +1 hide and the cloak were looted when fighting the goblins (hide is from the druid goblin, the cloak i don't remember).