|
Just browsing the discoveries and these two stood out . . .
Doppelganger Simulacrum (Su) (Ultimate Magic pg. 15): The alchemist learns how to create a simulacrum, a soulless duplicate, into which he can project his consciousness. As a full-round action, he may shift his consciousness from his current body to any one of his available doppelganger simulacra, which must be on the same plane as the alchemist. If killed in a simulacrum, he transfers to his own body automatically; if killed in his own body, he is dead. Unused simulacra (including his abandoned original body) appear to be lifeless corpses, though they do not decay. Creating a duplicate costs 1,000 gp in alchemical materials and requires 1 week to grow. An alchemist must be at least 10th level and must have the alchemical simulacrum discovery before selecting this discovery. The created simulacrum is a creature, not a supernatural effect.
and
Mummification (Ex) (Ultimate Magic pg. 16): The alchemist has mastered preserving flesh and applied this knowledge to his own body, turning himself into an undeadlike creature. After learning this discovery, the alchemist must perform a 30-day regimen of a special diet, rigorous exercise, and drinking a mildly poisonous alchemical tea. At the end of this regimen, he falls unconscious for 24 hours, then awakens as a “living mummy.” The alchemist’s type does not change, but he becomes immune to cold, nonlethal damage, paralysis, and sleep. An alchemist must be at least 10th level and must have the preserve organs discovery before selecting this discovery.
Is there any reason you couldn't combine the two so you do the ritual on the simulcrum but not your original body which is still normally alive but your doppelganger simulcrum is a living mummy you can use as your "normal" body keeping your real one concealed and safe?
Seems legit. Possibly likely to cause disassociative identity disorder in the long run, not that PF will emulate that.
At any rate, I wouldn't penalise you for not applying a mechanical advantage.
|
|
I don't know if that would be an issue your just wearing your cloned body as a skinsuit so if you die you go back to the original.
Good to know the concept works alchemist is starting to appeal to me though its a shame you can't get immortality via the philosophers stone. Still I do recall one story I read growing up about an alchemist and how they could spend their life learning to become immortal or make a philosophres stone and his rage that he'd wasted his life on the latter and was now an old man and the money he was making couldn't extend his life long enough to find the secret of the former whereas if he'd done it the other way round he'd have all the time in the world to figure out the later. Then his cat got into a fight with its brother killing him and causing a fire that burnt the alchemist alive but led to it becoming dosed in a mixture of alchemical reagents that caused it to become immortal and a cruel ruler of its cat kingdom till someone came along later to kill it.
|
Archives of Nethys reference the spell Simulacrum when the discovery says: "The alchemist learns how to create a simulacrum,". If that is correct, your Simulacrum has the limits of the Simulacrum spell.
On the other hand, the discovery doesn't say that it works like the spell, while Alchemical Simulacrum says that.
As Alchemical Simulacrum is a prerequisite of Doppelganger Simulacrum. I would apply them.
If your GM applies the Simulacrum rules, you would need to be a level 20 alchemist to apply the Mummification discovery to the Simulacrum.
If he doesn't apply the Simulacrum rules, he should decide how the copy works.
Bad rule writhing. :-(
|
|
Archives of Nethys reference the spell Simulacrum when the discovery says: "The alchemist learns how to create a simulacrum,". If that is correct, your Simulacrum has the limits of the Simulacrum spell.
On the other hand, the discovery doesn't say that it works like the spell, while Alchemical Simulacrum says that.As Alchemical Simulacrum is a prerequisite of Doppelganger Simulacrum. I would apply them.
If your GM applies the Simulacrum rules, you would need to be a level 20 alchemist to apply the Mummification discovery to the Simulacrum.
If he doesn't apply the Simulacrum rules, he should decide how the copy works.
Bad rule writhing. :-(
Most posts I saw while looking into that ability was its a unique class ability (with a pre-requisite of another class ability) so aside from simulcrum in the name it functions by its own rules i.e. you create a copy of yourself you can occupy as a full round action and has the full extent of your abilities since unlike a normal simlulcrum its not an extra being running around its a suit you put on or take off. I think most people also ruled it only worked on you and you can't use it on a an ancient wyrm gold dragon then take that body whereas simulcrum you technically could try for a half HD/level dragon. It is a creature not an effect so it doesn't decay or have a duration.
Does make me wonder what happened if it went to another plane would you be trapped in it with it becoming your body, forced back to your original one, nothing till you tried going back to your original as that option is now blocked as its residing on another plane. Personally I like the options in that last one if your in a simulcra body you can go to another plane fine but you can't transfer to another or your original if their on a different plane.
The simulacrum spell and alchemical simulacrum create extra creatures which you do not directly control; doppleganger simulacrum is more like a new home for your mind. I haven't heard it suggested before that doppleganger should cost you half your levels, any more than skinsend or magic jar do.
I suspect though that having your doppleganger move to a different plane to your real body would cut the connection and drop you back in that real body.
|
|
Most posts I saw while looking into that ability was its a unique class ability (with a pre-requisite of another class ability) so aside from simulcrum in the name it functions by its own rules i.e. you create a copy of yourself you can occupy as a full round action and has the full extent of your abilities since unlike a normal simlulcrum its not an extra being running around its a suit you put on or take off.
Can you point out where are the "its own rules" you cite? What I see is a lack of rules.
"a soulless duplicate, into which he can project his consciousness." We can [I][b]assume[b][i] that the duplicate has your hp, level, stats, and so on, but it is an assumption, not a rule.But, as we assume that the duplicate has your stat at the time of duplication, they are updated when your level increases?
When your stats get a permanent increase?
If your stat suffer some temporary or permanent damage?
The duplicate age? Does it age only when inhabited? Do your body age when uninhabited?
You need to clear all that with your GM to avoid misunderstandings that could ruin your game.
|
|
I should tank Dereklord for the citation.
So: "The alchemist learns how to create a simulacrum, a soulless duplicate, into which he can project his consciousness."
So we have something that is similar: "a simulacrum", some text that explains the differences "soulless duplicate", "into which he can project his consciousness", and some other pieces in the text of the ability, but nothing that says that the "duplicate" part gives you access to a full copy of your original body.
By the post SKR made in his role as one of the developers saying "a simulacrum" means that it works as the result of the simulacrum spell.
It is granted that that was the RAI? No. Paizo has violated that principle a good number of times. But if it doesn't work as the result of the spell, it needs an explanation on how it works, and the ability doesn't give it.
|
|
Most posts I saw while looking into that ability was its a unique class ability (with a pre-requisite of another class ability) so aside from simulcrum in the name it functions by its own rules i.e. you create a copy of yourself you can occupy as a full round action and has the full extent of your abilities since unlike a normal simlulcrum its not an extra being running around its a suit you put on or take off.Can you point out where are the "its own rules" you cite? What I see is a lack of rules.
"a soulless duplicate, into which he can project his consciousness." We can [I][b]assume[b][i] that the duplicate has your hp, level, stats, and so on, but it is an assumption, not a rule.But, as we assume that the duplicate has your stat at the time of duplication, they are updated when your level increases?
When your stats get a permanent increase?
If your stat suffer some temporary or permanent damage?
The duplicate age? Does it age only when inhabited? Do your body age when uninhabited?You need to clear all that with your GM to avoid misunderstandings that could ruin your game.
No, its why I posted here to get some clarity.
|
|
No, its why I posted here to get some clarity.
We can only give opinions, as there is no rule clarity. Then you should speak with your GM, he is the final arbiter in your campaign.
In the rule forum, I am generally strict in the reading of the rules. In an actual campaign that can change, as I know what house rules I am using in it, and what will be the effect of using one interpretation of an unclear rule or another in that campaign.
SKR post is the best we have for deciding how the discovery works, and even that is so-so, as Paizo hasn't always followed it.
the book that I have doesn't even include "a simulacrum,"
You have the first printing. They changed the text for the 2nd printing, replacing "The alchemist learns how to create a soulless duplicate of his body, into which he can project his consciousness." with "The alchemist learns how to create a simulacrum, a soulless duplicate of his body, into which he can project his consciousness." Note that the 1st printing also use the term simulacrum, four times even.
That said, the alchemist's soul possessed the simulacrum, and there's a whole bunch of stuff that comes with that. Magic Jar explicitly says that level come from the soul and is transferred to watever body the soul is currently in. So even when the simulacrum has only half your levels upon creation, the moment you possess it, it has your level. Which means that part of the spell description does nothing. So what part of the spell is (potentially) used? The control stuff is clearny not used, and the simulacrum is not made out of snow and ice (but rather "alchemical materials"). The discovery says "killed", which I'd say overrides the 0hp stuff. The Disguise check to hide that it's not the real body makes sense, though, as does the "It cannot increase its level or abilities." part: The original body must be the one that levels up.
The last part also, in my opinion, answers the original question, with a "no". Upon taking the discovery, you must begin the process of mummification, and I'd say you must return to your original body to level up (and thus learn the discovery). So while you could keep duplicates with your original appearance around, your real body must be the one getting mummified (and any doppelgänger created afterwards also has that stuff).
|
|
the book that I have doesn't even include "a simulacrum,"You have the first printing. They changed the text for the 2nd printing, replacing "The alchemist learns how to create a soulless duplicate of his body, into which he can project his consciousness." with "The alchemist learns how to create a simulacrum, a soulless duplicate of his body, into which he can project his consciousness." Note that the 1st printing also use the term simulacrum, four times even.
That said, the alchemist's soul possessed the simulacrum, and there's a whole bunch of stuff that comes with that. Magic Jar explicitly says that level come from the soul and is transferred to watever body the soul is currently in. So even when the simulacrum has only half your levels upon creation, the moment you possess it, it has your level. Which means that part of the spell description does nothing. So what part of the spell is (potentially) used? The control stuff is clearny not used, and the simulacrum is not made out of snow and ice (but rather "alchemical materials"). The discovery says "killed", which I'd say overrides the 0hp stuff. The Disguise check to hide that it's not the real body makes sense, though, as does the "It cannot increase its level or abilities." part: The original body must be the one that levels up.
The last part also, in my opinion, answers the original question, with a "no". Upon taking the discovery, you must begin the process of mummification, and I'd say you must return to your original body to level up (and thus learn the discovery). So while you could keep duplicates with your original appearance around, your real body must be the one getting mummified (and any doppelgänger created afterwards also has that stuff).
Isn't that contradictory? If level comes with the soul then shouldn't whichever body has the soul can level it up?
I would imagine that it is a freezeframe clone of the "caster" at the moment it is/was casted.
It's not a Cohort or Companion that ever levels up or is subject to retraining what it starts with. It is what it is when it comes into existence, and remains as such for the duration of its existence.
|
|
As Derklord pointed out, "a simulacrum" was added in the second printing so, theoretically, it is a change made to make how the ability works more clear.
It doesn't do that, but we need to consider that change when arguing on it works.
My opinion stays the same:
"The rules are unclear, you need to speak with your GM and decide how it works in your current campaign."
Isn't that contradictory? If level comes with the soul then shouldn't whichever body has the soul can level it up?
Yeah it is. I condensed my post from two different trains of thought, and didn't check if it made sense together.
What I was originally going for was (I think) that you couldn't physically alter the clones, only the original body, and you'd thus have to level up in thyt body. But ultimately, I don't really see an indication that there is any difference between your bodies - which means that it makes no difference which body you mummify. You can probably even make a doppelgänger of a doppelgänger (although as a GM I'd increase the Disguise DC or make it look more different from the original), so I'd say what's your original body is ultimately meaningless.
|
|
Not completely meaningless:
If killed in a simulacrum, he transfers to his own body automatically; if killed in his own body, he is dead.
We don't have any information on what happens if the original body is destroyed while the alchemist is in the simulacrum.
En passant, if the reference to the Simulacrum spell is irrelevant, as someone argues, the aspect of the doppelganger is irrelevant. Nothing in the ability description says that your doppelganger should look like you, or even that it should be humanoid.
We should check that we are referencing the more recent version of the Discovery.
Joesi cited the first printing of the book, Derklord cited a version that says "The alchemist learns how to create a simulacrum, a soulless duplicate of his body, into which he can project his consciousness.", the version I am using (and Senko too, I think), is that of AoN, that says " The alchemist learns how to create a simulacrum, a soulless duplicate, into which he can project his consciousness."
Having or removing that "duplicate of his body" makes a big difference. Without it, it is possible to present an argument that says that you can create a doppelganger of a storm giant and inhabit it.
Just to be on the safe side, I will download the last version of Ultimate Magic and check the printed text.
|
|
Doppelganger Simulacrum (Su): The alchemist learns how to create a simulacrum, a soulless duplicate of his body, into which he can project his consciousness.So, AoN left out some important words.
That was the version I was using which was ultimate magic. That said your point about the being killed is something I missed. I just unconciously read it as "If killed in a simulacrum, he transfers to his own body automatically; if his original body is killed, he is dead. not " If killed in a simulacrum, he transfers to his own body automatically; if killed in his own body, he is dead." Which raises a whole new set of issues. As amusing as the idea of an alchemist projecting his conciousness into a doppleganger simulcrum then killing his original body so he can never be killed as long as a single doppleganger simulcrum remains I'd be inclined to treat it as either (a)If the original body is killed they die regardless of whether they're in it or not as they are projecting their mind not transferring it or (b) If the original body is killed while they aren't in it then whichever body they are in at the time becomes their "original" body and they are aware of this. Personally I'm inclined more towards A both because of the wording and because it balances the ability a bit. You can transfer freely between doppleganger simlucrums but need to protect your vulnerable body while you aren't in it.