Spellstrike and MAP for non Attack Spells

[CaffeinatedNinja]

Mods, forgive me if this is too much information for the forums, but I think it is an important question for Magus.

Magus in the playtest was clear that using it with a save spell did not cause Spellstrike to count as 2 attacks for MAP. Now it is less clear.

Default spell strike only works with attack rolls, and as they are using 2 attacks, it is explicit that it counts as two attacks for MAP purposes. Key section bolded.

"You channel a spell into a punch or sword thrust to deliver a combined attack. You Cast a Spell that takes 1 or 2 actions to cast and requires a spell attack roll. The effects of the spell don’t occur immediately but are imbued into your attack instead. Make a melee Strike with a weapon or unarmed attack. Your spell is coupled with your attack, using your attack roll result to determine the effects of both the Strike and the spell. This counts as two attacks for your multiple attack penalty, but you don’t apply the penalty until after you’ve completed the Spellstrike."

There is a level 2 feat that allows you to use save spells. But unlike in the playtest, the spell just goes off when you swing, it doesn't benefit from the hit or miss (unless you crit miss then it is lost).

"You’ve adapted a wider array of spells to work with your
attacks. Rather than needing to use a spell that has a
spell attack roll for a Spellstrike, you can use a harmful
spell that can target a creature or that has an area of a
burst, cone, or line (abiding by any other restrictions of
Spellstrike). When you Cast a Spell that doesn’t have a
spell attack roll as part of a Spellstrike, it works in the
following ways.
• If your Strike critically fails, the spell is lost with no effect.
• Creatures use their normal defenses against the spell,
such as saving throws.
• If the spell lets you select a number of targets, it
instead targets only the creature you attacked with
your Strike." Then some other text about bursts.

So, does double MAP apply if using a saving through? I think it still doesn't.

As I read it, you only do double map because you are making two attacks with an attack trait spell.
Your spell is coupled with your attack, using your attack roll result to determine the effects of both the Strike and the spell. This counts as two attacks for your multiple attack penalty

A save spell doesn't use the attack roll to determine the effects of both, they both go off independently. (Oh and FYI, ran the numbers, using save cantrips is a lot worse than attack cantrips now, so odd they would penalize it doubly with two MAP)

Thoughts? Official clarification would be great if possible hah, we have been debating this one a lot.

[Nefreet]

Well the street date isn't until the 25th, so you're probably not going to get much discussion until then, and certainly nothing official before then.

I know there's been a YouTube series following a Magus and a Summoner, GMed by Jason himself. Has it ever come up in that?

[HumbleGamer]

It seems -10 map regardless the fact it's a spell attack or save ( it's generic, so it applies to both of them).

The alternative would be giving aoe spells not only the possibility to damage aoe and dealing damage on a failure, but also a -5 map to strike a second time ( benefitting for example from the quickened condition, leaving the third action to recharge).

I'd definitely go with a -10.

[CaffeinatedNinja]

HumbleGamer wrote:

It seems -10 map regardless the fact it's a spell attack or save ( it's generic, so it applies to both of them).

The alternative would be giving aoe spells not only the possibility to damage aoe and dealing damage on a failure, but also a -5 map to strike a second time ( benefitting for example from the quickened condition, leaving the third action to recharge).

I'd definitely go with a -10.

Hmm, I disagree that is is generic. If it just said “Spellstrike counts as two attacks for MAP.” I would agree. But it specifically links it to one attack resolving two attack rolls. Which does not happen with a save spell.

Magus is not great at save spells, their DC already lags behind.

[Blave]

It always counts as 2 attacks for the MAP. No language in the feat says otherwise.

Attacks inflict the MAP when an attack roll happens. There's never two rolls happening with Spell Strike. You roll once for both effects, that is not the same as rolling two times. Hence the double MAP is independent of using an attack spell or not.

[CaffeinatedNinja]

Blave wrote:

It always counts as 2 attacks for the MAP. No language in the feat says otherwise.

Attacks inflict the MAP when an attack roll happens. There's never two rolls happening with Spell Strike. You roll once for both effects, that is not the same as rolling two times. Hence the double MAP is independent of using an attack spell or not.

Except with save spells the attack roll doesn’t determine the success of the spell. The spell goes off at the same time as the attack, but hit or miss, the spell just has a normal save.

[Squiggit]

The thing is, the ability doesn't say apply MAP normally or anything like that, it specifically calls out that it treats it as two attacks, ala Power Attack.

Expansive Spellstrike doesn't touch on that part of the effect at all.

[Blave]

CaffeinatedNinja wrote:

Except with save spells the attack roll doesn’t determine the success of the spell. The spell goes off at the same time as the attack, but hit or miss, the spell just has a normal save.

You are misreading this. You link two sentences together that have nothing to do with each other.

Spell Strike says "This counts as two attacks for your multiple attack penalty, but you don’t apply the penalty until after you’ve completed the Spellstrike." and you think "this" refers to the sentence before it. But all the "counts as multiple attacks for MAP"-feats use the exact same language. Look at some examples:

Power Attack wrote:

You unleash a particularly powerful attack that clobbers your foe but leaves you a bit unsteady. Make a melee Strike. This counts as two attacks when calculating your multiple attack penalty. If this Strike hits, you deal an extra die of weapon damage. If you’re at least 10th level, increase this to two extra dice, and if you’re at least 18th level, increase it to three extra dice.

Overwhelming Blow wrote:

You throw your weight into a powerful attack that leaves you vulnerable. Make a melee Strike. This counts as three attacks when calculating your multiple attack penalty. If this Strike hits, you get a critical hit. If you roll a critical hit, your attack also gains the deadly d12 trait. Whether or not you hit, you become stunned 1 and are flat-footed until the start of your next turn.

Eldritch Shot wrote:

You Cast a Spell that takes 1 or 2 actions to cast and requires a spell attack roll. The effects of the spell do not occur immediately but are imbued into the bow you're wielding. Make a Strike with that bow. Your spell flies with the ammunition, using your attack roll result to determine the effects of both the Strike and the spell. This counts as two attacks for your multiple attack penalty, but you don't apply the penalty until after you've completed both attacks.

So this sentence is just their standard way of saying an ability counts as two/three attacks for the MAP. It's not a unique wording for Spell Strike with some hidden meaning. The sentence before it is not directly linked to it.

So Spell Strike counts as two attacks for your MAP. Always.