Hey gang,
So, the latest errata says maneuvers from Athletics like shove, trip, etc... DO NOT add to MAP because although they have the attack trait, they are not strikes. Is that the right interpretation there? That even though I trip for my first action, my follow up strike, if a successful trip occurred, would be at +2 without any MAP?
THNX!
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"Some skill actions have the attack trait, specifically Athletics actions such as Grapple and Trip. You still make a skill check with these skills, not an attack roll.
The multiple attack penalty applies on those skill actions as well."
-FAQ
https://paizo.com/pathfinder/faq
So yes anything with the attack trait adds to MAP and is affected by MAP, unless otherwise stated in that action.
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What this errata did was establish that things that impact attack rolls do not necessarily impact athletics/acrobatic checks: The biggest issue it settled was 'if I trip with a finesse weapon, can I use Dexterity instead of Strength on my Athletics roll?' (the answer is now a definite 'no').
The MAP, however, is based on the Attack trait which most maneuvers have, so:
- They increase your MAP normally since they have the Attack trait, and
- Your MAP applies to these checks, because the errata states it does ('The multiple attack penalty applies on those skill actions as well.').
Hey gang,
So, the latest errata says maneuvers from Athletics like shove, trip, etc... DO NOT add to MAP because although they have the attack trait, they are not strikes. Is that the right interpretation there? That even though I trip for my first action, my follow up strike, if a successful trip occurred, would be at +2 without any MAP?
THNX!
I am assuming that you are meaning this errata:
Page 446: Attack Rolls. There was some confusion as to whether skill checks with the attack trait (such as Grapple or Trip) are also attack rolls at the same time. They are not. To make this clear, add this sentence to the beginning of the definition of attack roll "When you use a Strike action or make a spell attack, you attempt a check called an attack roll."
To clarify the different rules elements involved:
An attack is any check that has the attack trait. It applies and increases the multiple attack penalty.
An attack roll is one of the core types of checks in the game (along with saving throws, skill checks, and Perception checks). They are used for Strikes and spell attacks, and traditionally target Armor Class.
Some skill actions have the attack trait, specifically Athletics actions such as Grapple and Trip. You still make a skill check with these skills, not an attack roll.
The multiple attack penalty applies on those skill actions as well. As it says later on in the definition of attack roll "Striking multiple times in a turn has diminishing returns. The multiple attack penalty (detailed on page 446) applies to each attack after the first, whether those attacks are Strikes, special attacks like the Grapple action of the Athletics skill, or spell attack rolls." There is inaccurate language in the Multiple Attack Penalty section implying it applies only to attack rolls that will be receiving errata.
If so, then no - your interpretation is not correct.
The errata clarifies that skill actions with the Attack trait do not cause you to make an 'Attack Roll'. You are still making a skill roll.
However, the errata still affirms that using an action with the Attack trait uses and increases Multiple Attack Penalty.
So making three Trip attempts in the same round is going to be made at three different total Athletics bonus values.
Thank you everyone for clarifying this! Ya'll are great!!
However, if you use Assurance on the skill check you will ignore all (bonuses and) penalties, including MAP.You still increase MAP doing this for future actions.
Not if you use assurance.
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That is incorrect. Attack actions made with Assurance do not suffer from MAP, but they absolutely still increase it normally. Assurance only affects your roll. It doesn't remove the Attack trait.
We are in agreement then. I wasn't sure what you were saying.
We are in agreement then. I wasn't sure what you were saying.
He's saying if you make two trips using assurance, then follow with a strike you will suffer the MAP for having made two trip attempts.
Then we're all on the same page.
Although is you're doing two assurance trips and then a strike, you don't understand how assurance works !
Then we're all on the same page.
Although is you're doing two assurance trips and then a strike, you don't understand how assurance works !
Yes, it's absolutely a bad strategy but it helps to illustrate how the rules work.