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So for the past few months ive been trying to work on a variant build for a couple of builds ive been working on.
Keep in mind all these builds start off with a brawler dip of some sort to kinda give the whole "Starting with the fundamentals" vibe before going into the main build.
Context: The 2 builds in question have a Striker and a grappling Variant to them
The first build Brawler 1/Disciple of Wholeness/Invested Regent 12 Umonk, Has a large focus on Self Healing while eventually specializing in the power Abundent Step and the subsequent feats for it, allowing it to dart around the battlefield Much faster and sooner then most other people.
The other Build Brawler 1/Blood Conduit/Untouchable Rager 12 Bloodrager is a Maneuver specialist that prefers general roughhousing to refined combat specializing in grappling and Bullrushing while having a respectable Anti Magic barrier(Keep in mind you can activate Bloodrage as a free action so you can pop it in case you are going to get hit by a spell that you really dont)
My issue is i wanted to make one more build that was heavily charisma based and focused on either feints or dirty tricks to confound, redirect and generally mislead enemies. But no matter what i try i can't find anything in the realms of pure or semi pure martial territory that can compete with move action teleport or on demand magic resistance.
So is a charisma heavy build just too gimmicky? or is there something im missing? I'll happily answer any questions.
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It sounds like your problem is that you haven't defined what you are looking for very well - to yourself, I mean.
The builds you are talking about don't really "compete" with one another. They are in different spaces, so you need to decide what's important to you. Do you want to be defensive? Against what? Or would you rather do a bunch of melee damage? Or do you want to debuff the enemies and let your teammates do the damage? What's most important to you? Also you're set on starting with a level of brawler but it doesn't seem like it's for RP reasons, rather because you think it's a solid base that any martial build should begin with. That's limiting possible builds.
There are plenty of charisma-focused martial builds that do completely different things. Look at a Devoted Muse Samurai for a feint/trip/AoO build that does moderate damage. Scaled Fist monks are a lot like regular monks but dependent on charisma instead of wisdom. And of course there's the old-school paladin 2/oracle 1/synthesist X build made of pure charisma that's probably still the most overpowered martial there is.
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It sounds like your problem is that you haven't defined what you are looking for very well - to yourself, I mean.
The builds you are talking about don't really "compete" with one another. They are in different spaces, so you need to decide what's important to you. Do you want to be defensive? Against what? Or would you rather do a bunch of melee damage? Or do you want to debuff the enemies and let your teammates do the damage? What's most important to you? Also you're set on starting with a level of brawler but it doesn't seem like it's for RP reasons, rather because you think it's a solid base that any martial build should begin with. That's limiting possible builds.
There are plenty of charisma-focused martial builds that do completely different things. Look at a Devoted Muse Samurai for a feint/trip/AoO build that does moderate damage. Scaled Fist monks are a lot like regular monks but dependent on charisma instead of wisdom. And of course there's the old-school paladin 2/oracle 1/synthesist X build made of pure charisma that's probably still the most overpowered martial there is.
I do value martial Flexibility, but i am willing to be talked out of it.
The first question is what you mean by 'gimmicky'. Is it the same as a one-trick pony to you, or does it mean something dependent on GM rule interpretation, or does it mean that the character is dependent on a magic item? I've seen or heard all of these as well as others less defined, and I don't know which you mean.
Teleporting is great. It's also coming late there. Is a trick which doesn't start coming online until character level 11 OK to you as a character defining thing? Self-healing starts at character level 7 and isn't great then. The bloodrage starts earlier, true. But generally you need to define a level range to make comparisons.
Anyway, the criteria as I understand them:
Cha focused
Non-spellcaster or 4-level spellcaster (possibly 6-level? A mesmerist is.)
Uses dirty tricks or feints or other trickery
Not 'gimmicky' (but I still don't know what you mean by that)
Unknown level range
Any comment to add there?
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The first question is what you mean by 'gimmicky'. Is it the same as a one-trick pony to you, or does it mean something dependent on GM rule interpretation, or does it mean that the character is dependent on a magic item? I've seen or heard all of these as well as others less defined, and I don't know which you mean.
Teleporting is great. It's also coming late there. Is a trick which doesn't start coming online until character level 11 OK to you as a character defining thing? Self-healing starts at character level 7 and isn't great then. The bloodrage starts earlier, true. But generally you need to define a level range to make comparisons.
Anyway, the criteria as I understand them:
Cha focused
Non-spellcaster or 4-level spellcaster (possibly 6-level? A mesmerist is.)
Uses dirty tricks or feints or other trickery
Not 'gimmicky' (but I still don't know what you mean by that)
Unknown level rangeAny comment to add there?
Yes 1 I was referring to unchained monk who gets both way earlier the teleporting at 8 and the self healing at 6 respectively.
And 2 the level range i had in mind is up to 13.
Aside from that you got the criteria right except hes it has to be a non caster.
OK, but please specify what meaning of gimmicky you're using.
(minor point, with a one level dip the monk gets those 1 level later of course)
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OK, but please specify what meaning of gimmicky you're using.
(minor point, with a one level dip the monk gets those 1 level later of course)
I mean its so invested in having everything from AC, to will saves and all that stuff being centered around charisma it has little room for anything else to be effective.
Consider a ninja. They get a Cha-based ki pool, full sneak attack and a bunch of ninja tricks. They don't get free dex to damage like an unchained rogue does, true. They don't need a monomaniacal focus on Cha to work though. While they could be made into a feinter I still prefer dirty tricks. How do you feel about flowers?
(20 pt buy) Str 16 Dex 15 Con 12+2 race=14 Int 8-2 race=6 Wis 10 Cha 14+2 race=16
race abilities include +2 natural armor to help make up for not maxing dex.
Feats etc.
(Ninja weapon profs include some stuff actually designed for dirty tricks including ones with reach. You're probably going to end up wearing mithral medium armor with no ACP.)
1: TWF
3: dirty fighting
ninja trick 4: rogue trick (underhanded trick: improved dirty trick)
5: extra ninja trick (redirect force)
NT 6: combat trick (greater dirty trick, prereqs via underhanded trick)
7: ability focus (blossom shower)
NT 8: vanishing trick
9: quick dirty trick
master ninja trick 10: invisible blade (swift action greater invis.)
11: lunge or superior dirty trick or improved TWF
MNT 12: (lots of fun options)
13: ???
Basically landing a dirty trick is really easy for you, late game swift action greater invisibility should be amazingly fun too. also the blossom shower ability works when you want to target an area rather than an individual. Other master ninja tricks include an improved familiar with no other trick as a prereq, or walking thru walls, or more - look them up. Despite being pretty dumb 8 base skill points means you have some skills, and sometimes playing someone without a brain in their head is fun. You'll likely want the irrepressible trait to improve will saves but this character is hardly centered on charisma.
Or you might like a vigilante. If you're not going for a spellcasting archetype you might pick up vigilante talents like lethal grace, expose weakness and deceitful trick; mockery and turnabout might also suit you. Various social talents also help with deception. Vigilantes can be tricky bastards for sure.
If you're determined to get into feinting that's possible. Something like brawler 2 / mesmerist 4 / devoted muse 7 can get the required feats (aim for improved two-weapon feint & the prestige class prereqs) and have useful effects when the feint works. Choose mesmerist spells for out of combat use and they stay useful to some degree later on.
But no matter what i try i can't find anything in the realms of pure or semi pure martial territory that can compete with move action teleport or on demand magic resistance.
How about AoE-AoO-feinting?
Warrior Poet 1 / Holy Tactician Paladin X is as Cha-focused as they come. Healing, saves, attack, and of course feinting. You should probably add the Knight of Coins archetype for more skill ranks as Bluff will be maxed out, and can replace spellcasting through another archetype (although it's best if you leave it).
You feint every enemy that sees you thanks to Equipment Trick: Cloak, you get +1 Dodge to AC for every successful feint (Dueling Cloak Adept), and enemies provoke from all allies since you're giving out Improved Feint Partner to everyone.