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I'm playing a support Alchemist in PFS, even if I'm still not very high level (5).
A few things that help:
- Drakeheart Mutagen is golden at level 3-4. It's also very good if you have a Monk in your party. Otherwise, even if it's nice, the cost is high (you need one action during combat to buff, the one-hour long ones being level 11+).
- Alchemist has a lot of different boosts. You should not specialize in only one of them. Poison is always nice (more at level 8+ when the damage really ramp up), and some Mutagens are cool for specific characters (like a Quicksilver one for an archer or a Cognitive one for a Wizard).
- Perpetual Bombs are just plain bad. You can do better for less expensive. If you like debuffing, going for a Bird animal companion gives you automatic Dazzled, which is the toughest condition Debilitating can give but with 4 times more chances to affect the enemy. If you like damage, then you should get away from Perpetual Bombs, too. Even with Sticky Bomb, your damage will be equivalent to Electric Arc (that doesn't affect your MAP so you can throw an extra bomb). And you can get Electric Arc at level 2.
- If the adventuring days are long, don't play an Alchemist. This one is the best advice to anyone who wants to play an Alchemist. Alchemist is the class with the shortest adventuring days before becoming a commoner with a crossbow.
- Research Fields are minor boosts. You can build any Alchemist you want with any Research Field. Choose the one that gives bonuses to what you like, but don't consider your Alchemist a "Bomber" or a "Toxicologist". It will be an Alchemist. Especially if you play a support Alchemist, you'll have to use all the tools at your disposal.
- I consider versatile Alchemists to be the best ones. Alchemist is a bad class for specialization. If you expect high numbers, you should move away from it.
- Alchemist is also considered the worst class in the game. In my opinion, you can do nice things with it, but you'll have hard time making a killer build.
If you want more information about my build and how I play it, don't hesitate to send me a private message (I don't want to detail my build on the board, it already ended up with people trying to explain me my character...).
As a side note, focusing a character on Initiative boost seems too focused to be really useful in my opinion. In PF1, Initiative was extremely important. In PF2, it's always nice, but it won't change a fight. Also, due to more extreme initiative difference due to level, boosting initiative is mostly useless against low level monsters and not that useful against high level ones.
Also, Alchemist is a class with a great need for its feats (many are tax feats). As such, you won't have much room to put 2 Dedication and the corresponding feats.
And using Cursebound focus spells on a non-Oracle means that you'll be flat-footed all the time after the first fight, that's not a minor issue.
I've made minor edits to my previous post and added a point about Oracle. I have hard time writing a long post in one go.
I just don't consider pets since we are 5 players, and getting other player tokens might cause trouble given the "small" maps. It's not a rule but a thing of mine ( I am also wondering whether a summoner could fit or not for the same reason ).
Well, I was speaking of a Bird, as they don't take space. Anyway, the choice of an Animal Companion on an Alchemist is expensive, as the Alchemist doesn't have much space for feats. It's a major choice and I understand if you disregard it.
As for the research field, I really like the toxicologist because it really enhances the alchemist gameplay, reducing the apply poison from 2 to 1 action. And I could still use the Perpetual Bredth to add a bomb to my perpetual infusions, but probably being a bomber would do the trick better. what you say?
Applying poison during combat is a bad idea. The damage output gain is very low. I only apply poison before combat. The advantage is that it's free damage, even if it's unreliable one.
I consider Perpetual Bombs to be really bad. When you look at the damage output, you realize that they don't compete with anything valid, even with Sticky Bombs. I would only use them to trigger weaknesses (Alignment Ampoule is certainly the best choice for Perpetual Bombs).As for electric arc I do agree it has a really nice sinergy, though I suppose I'd have to get the whole wizard class progression to make it shine.
Adapted Cantrip, if you are human, is a hell of a feat if you want Electric Arc on any caster class.
I don't really care about numbers, unless I am building for it ( and the alchemist is not bullt to compete with combatants or spellcasters ). I'd like to see it providing a great support, so for example allowing my team to start first, give them a huge amount of AC with no speed penalty ( also saving them class/general feats ) and now the possibility to use debilitating bombs with perpetual infusions to debuff enemies feels so great!
Debilitating is highly random. You need to hit and then the enemy has a Fortitude Save. Also, remember that the whole Debilitating line asks for 4 feats. That's why I consider Animal Companion to be plain better, it gives better debuff (even if there's less choice) for lower level feats and adds an Animal Companion on top of it. Also, you can use your Animal Companion with your top level bombs and as such continue to deal valuable damage, unlike Debilitating Bombs on Perpetual Bombs. Also, remember that Perpetual Bombs are limited to 2 Bombs, so you will end up sometimes unable to use them as an enemy can be resistant to both bombs.
Adapted Cantrip, if you are human, is a hell of a feat if you want Electric Arc on any caster class.
But what about class DC?
Considering the character will be starting with 16 dex, 18 int and 14 char ( I was thinking about a ratfolk ), even with the adopted ancestry human, the spellcasting DC would remain probably not that high. What do you think?Being able to achieve 18 char by lvl 10, I'll be 3 points behind a true spellcaster. But maybe it would anyway be one of the best choices. I don't have a clue since I am not really used to spellcasting.
True. I must admit I don't find the choice of going Oracle to be really strong. Even if Call to Arms is nice, you will be flat-footed all the time but during the first fight. And on top of that you have another -2 to AC and Saving Throws unless you attack (which shouldn't be hard with bombs, but it still means you start all fights with the penalty and you have the penalty also during adventuring, for traps and such).
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Hmnn. Interesting challenge you've set yourself here.
I play an Alchemist (Bomber) in PFS, and I've reached 8th Level. The main problem I see with your idea is that it is very, very resource intensive.
Now, on the bright side: There is nothing stopping you from making Drakeheart Mutagen one of your Signature Formulas at Level 1 (as long as you take the Mutagenist Research Field.) That will let you make 3 Drakehearts per Batch of Infused Reagents.
The thing is, you're committing yourself to providing a Drakeheart Mutagen to each party member for every fight. At first level, if you max out your Reagents (Int 18, Alchemical Familiar Feat) you'll have 6 Batches of Reagents. Say you devote 5 Batches to Drakeheart, that's 15 Drakehearts, or enough for 3 fights that day. That only leaves one Batch for anything else.
At third, it gets tricky, because by RAW you can't make a Moderate Mutagen one of your Signatures. So you either stick with Lesser Drakeheart, or you move to making Moderate for only 2 per Batch. Maxed out Batches is 8... meaning a total of 16 Moderate Drakehearts with nothing left over. Talk to your GM. I definitely don't feel there's anything gamebreaking about upgrading your Signature Mutagens to Moderate.
Now, as to Bombs... I love Bombs. I play a Bomber and it's one of the most fun characters I've ever played. However, playing a Bomber is very Resource Intensive. If you're going Mutagenist, you're only going to be able to get a Perpetual Infusions Bomb at 8th level. You will definitely run out of Reagents when you're providing so much Drakeheart and then throwing Bombs.
You're going to have to think hard about how you're contributing in combat besides providing Drakeheart. Alchemist ends up finishing with the lowest "to hit" modifier in the game. This can be offset a bit by using either Quicksilver or Bestial Mutagens at-level. Quicksilver is the obvious choice for you as you're going high-Dex, but you have to build around it a bit. Healing in between encounters is very important when you're regularly taking Quicksilver.
And then you have to think about the fact that if you're taking Quicksilver, you can't be taking Drakeheart, as two Mutagens don't mix. (That'll change for a Mutagenist at 13th level, but 13th level is a long way off.)
Finally, when you have that boost, what are you going to do with it? Bombs aren't really an option with your main goal being the party's Drakeheart supplier. I'd go with a Crossbow, maybe even an Alchemical Crossbow if your GM allows it... mainly for the flavor, but the damage boost is welcome too.
I consider Perpetual Bombs to be really bad. When you look at the damage output, you realize that they don't compete with anything valid, even with Sticky Bombs. I would only use them to trigger weaknesses (Alignment Ampoule is certainly the best choice for Perpetual Bombs).
It really depends on the Bomb. A Perpetual Infusion Sticky Acid Flask is pretty competitive with Electric Arc cast by a maxed-out MC Wizard, even with 1 target for the Acid Flask and 2 targets for the Electric Arc. (For several levels the average damage from a single PIS Flask will beat the average damage for Electric Arc hitting two targets.) With both hitting a single target there's no contest. And if the Bomb can Splash even one other target (not unheard of for a Bomber, especially at Levels 10+) the Cantrip falls even further behind.
As for Alignment Ampoule being the best choice for Perpetual Infusions, I disagree. For one thing, it's not actually on the list of Bombs that can be made from Perpetual Infusions, so it would require some GM buy-in. For a second thing, Alignment Ampoules only do *anything* if the target has a Weakness to Chaos, Law, Good or Evil. There's a lot of stuff out there that has no such Weakness. You only get two Perpetual Infusions (four if you take the APG Feat Perpetual Breadth)... I don't think I'd want infinite Bombs that do nothing against most targets.
It really depends on the Bomb. A Perpetual Infusion Sticky Acid Flask is pretty competitive with Electric Arc cast by a maxed-out MC Wizard, even with 1 target for the Acid Flask and 2 targets for the Electric Arc. (For several levels the average damage from a single PIS Flask will beat the average damage for Electric Arc hitting two targets.) With both hitting a single target there's no contest. And if the Bomb can Splash even one other target (not unheard of for a Bomber, especially at Levels 10+) the Cantrip falls even further behind.
Red: Perpetual Acid Flask with Sticky Bomb and all the Bomber Feats during 2 rounds.
Green and Blue: Electric Arc from Dedication, single and double target.
We see that even against a single target, Electric Arc is competitive as it's immediate damage and not damage delayed during 2 rounds. Against 2 targets there is no reason to choose your Perpetual Bomb.
Also, being competitive with Dedication Electric Arc against a single target is not exactly what I would call "interesting", especially when you consider that you paid a level 8 feat to deal so few damage.
I haven't found anything you can do with Perpetual Bombs, besides activating Weaknesses, and that's why I speak of Alignment Ampoule (but it's true that it asks for GM approval).
A note that as a toxicologist dread ampoule and blight bomb have the poison trait, making them ideal as your go to bomb cause you can get three per reagent instead of 2.
They're also pretty good, especially dread ampoule.
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I don't understand ... in my experience I have only EVER found that going higher in initiative order is detrimental since your PC cannot react to opponents or allies who go after you, you'll continually be the first to be targeted with effects, and you'll also be a sitting duck for persistent damage, poison, and other such conditions.
The only advantage I can really imagine that really exists in my mind the ability to Raise a Shield, cast a buff spell/effect, or to Delay your Init until there is a better time to actually take your turn.
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True. I must admit I don't find the choice of going Oracle to be really strong. Even if Call to Arms is nice, you will be flat-footed all the time but during the first fight. And on top of that you have another -2 to AC and Saving Throws unless you attack (which shouldn't be hard with bombs, but it still means you start all fights with the penalty and you have the penalty also during adventuring, for traps and such).
Adapted Cantrip, if you are human, is a hell of a feat if you want Electric Arc on any caster class.
But what about class DC?
Considering the character will be starting with 16 dex, 18 int and 14 char ( I was thinking about a ratfolk ), even with the adopted ancestry human, the spellcasting DC would remain probably not that high. What do you think?Being able to achieve 18 char by lvl 10, I'll be 3 points behind a true spellcaster. But maybe it would anyway be one of the best choices. I don't have a clue since I am not really used to spellcasting.
Anytime I get in encounter mode as a Battle Oracle, the first action I would do is Strike my most heavily armored comrade with my bare hand. That should be enough to avoid the -2.
Are there sources of damage/conditions that target AC or Saves but do not happen in Encounter mode (ie after Initiative is rolled)?