Is it just me, or is this more of a suicidal ability? Like "Oh GM I'm tired of my character, please kill me now."
You go from moving 25 feet an action to moving 10 feet an action. I guess because of a conversion of matter, the fox form blows up like a balloon or something or gets really stumpy legs. To the point that normal foxes are running rings around you. Your fox familiar can move faster than you. Might as well just jump on it, command it, and you'd still move faster than if you tried to use your stumpy legs to get somewhere.
Your AC becomes 15+level. That could be an increase, at least until you you get expert in unarmored defense and or more than 3 dex.
Then you take more damage with every physical attack. Like the heck?
Like is there anything good about this spell that really justifies using it other than wanting to do a little roll on the ground? Cause sure, you've got +10 to stealth but with 10 movement, you're only going to be sneaking 5 feet at a time or nothing if that is difficult terrain you're trying to go through.
No wait. the one thing I thought it might be useful for, it isn't, even to the limited degree it has.
There is nothing that justifies using this ability.
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Is it just me, or is this more of a suicidal ability? Like "Oh GM I'm tired of my character, please kill me now."
You go from moving 25 feet an action to moving 10 feet an action. I guess because of a conversion of matter, the fox form blows up like a balloon or something or gets really stumpy legs. To the point that normal foxes are running rings around you. Your fox familiar can move faster than you. Might as well just jump on it, command it, and you'd still move faster than if you tried to use your stumpy legs to get somewhere.
Your AC becomes 15+level. That could be an increase, at least until you you get expert in unarmored defense and or more than 3 dex.
Then you take more damage with every physical attack. Like the heck?
Like is there anything good about this spell that really justifies using it other than wanting to do a little roll on the ground? Cause sure, you've got +10 to stealth but with 10 movement, you're only going to be sneaking 5 feet at a time or nothing if that is difficult terrain you're trying to go through.
Why would change into a fox in combat? t's there for the out of combat stealth +10 at 1st level: it's slow but that doesn't matter much when you succeed. This is especially true if you're moving past something that isn't worried about a normal fox moving through a woods so even a failed roll isn't bad. Also, it's easier to find cover as a tiny creature.
Tiny can also give you access to area a small+ creature can't access and the form give scent that might be useful. Overall it's not an amazing ability but as a base ability would you expect it to be one?
I do agree with the reduced speed being absurd. As a GM, I would allow you to keep your speed, since you're turning into a regular fox presumably.
The Pest Form says Cat is an option, but it clearly is designed with the assumption that you're turning into a Lizard or Spider or something like that.
That said, Pest Form isn't mechanically bad at all. It's just not meant for dangerous situations. You should never take that form in a dungeon (unless it's to squeeze into a tiny space or something). It's for scouting. Walking around town and listening to people. Approaching an enemy camp and overhearing battle plans without them paying you a second thought.
Yes, the stealth bonus is great for this, but you really don't need it most of the time, because unless you're a farmer trying to protect his chicken coop or a child who needs therapy, who is going to attack or pay any mind to a stray fox?
Why would change into a fox in combat? t's there for the out of combat stealth +10 at 1st level: it's slow but that doesn't matter much when you succeed. This is especially true if you're moving past something that isn't worried about a normal fox moving through a woods so even a failed roll isn't bad. Also, it's easier to find cover as a tiny creature.
Tiny can also give you access to area a small+ creature can't access and the form give scent that might be useful. Overall it's not an amazing ability but as a base ability would you expect it to be one?
Well in PF1, fox form was a great way to escape. Like "Oh crap, they spotted me, time to run." You'd change into it, not to continue combat, but to escape it.
Even in PF2 you still need cover/concealment to do stealth. Sneak can let you get around a little easier but.. "You don’t get to roll against a creature if, at the end of your movement, you neither are concealed from it nor have cover or greater cover against it. You automatically become observed by such a creature."
Doesn't matter how much you succeed by If you can't get across even a five foot gap.
And yeah, I'm not expecting it to be like "Omg, if you're not taking this you're stupid!" but the opposite isn't good either. It would be better if it just made you tiny, gave the animal trait and then maybe a small bonus to AC or Stealth or what not. As is, its more of a suicide button unless you have a strange set of circumstances.
I do agree with the reduced speed being absurd. As a GM, I would allow you to keep your speed, since you're turning into a regular fox presumably.
The Pest Form says Cat is an option, but it clearly is designed with the assumption that you're turning into a Lizard or Spider or something like that.
That said, Pest Form isn't mechanically bad at all. It's just not meant for dangerous situations. You should never take that form in a dungeon (unless it's to squeeze into a tiny space or something). It's for scouting. Walking around town and listening to people. Approaching an enemy camp and overhearing battle plans without them paying you a second thought.
Yes, the stealth bonus is great for this, but you really don't need it most of the time, because unless you're a farmer trying to protect his chicken coop or a child who needs therapy, who is going to attack or pay any mind to a stray fox?
Yeah approaching the enemy camp as an animal. Since the stealth is pretty much useless, you gotta hope that they don't mind wild animals flopping around their place. Cause if they do turn out to care, you ain't getting away.
Walking around town? Call for animal control! That thing might bite the children!
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Yeah approaching the enemy camp as an animal. Since the stealth is pretty much useless, you gotta hope that they don't mind wild animals flopping around their place. Cause if they do turn out to care, you ain't getting away.
Use your discretion. Is it a military encampment or bandit hideout? They probably won't care unless your GM is specifically looking to get you. A castle is going to have a lot more problems obviously.
Walking around town? Call for animal control! That thing might bite the children!
You must live in a very different sort of place than I do (and I don't mean that in any sort of snarky or demeaning way, just that different people have different experiences). In my experience if anyone suggested calling animal control for anything less than a mountain lion, people would roll their eyes at you. And it's not like I live in some super rural area either. A renaissance or medieval inspired town? If the GM pulled that I'd assume he was specifically trying to screw me over.
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Well in PF1, fox form was a great way to escape.
Polymorphing get hit repeatedly with the nerf hammer in PF2: don't bring in any PF1 expectations for it into PF2.
Even in PF2 you still need cover/concealment to do stealth. Sneak can let you get around a little easier but.. "You don’t get to roll against a creature if, at the end of your movement, you neither are concealed from it nor have cover or greater cover against it. You automatically become observed by such a creature."
You're going along the treeline by a bandit hideout: every square has trees, bushes, ect. That undergrowth than slows you down is also what you can hide behind. If you're in a vast plain with large distances apart from different cover, sure it's bad.
And yeah, I'm not expecting it to be like "Omg, if you're not taking this you're stupid!" but the opposite isn't good either.
polymorphing is a combat buff now for the most part, with a few nods to VERY limited utility. That's just the way it is. Fox form gets you through tiny holes or makes it easier for someone to carry you over a wall... Don't expect much more.
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Walking around town? Call for animal control! That thing might bite the children!You must live in a very different sort of place than I do (and I don't mean that in any sort of snarky or demeaning way, just that different people have different experiences). In my experience if anyone suggested calling animal control for anything less than a mountain lion, people would roll their eyes at you. And it's not like I live in some super rural area either.
LOL I know right? It wasn't that long ago bears where walking through my back yard. If anything, seeing a fox would have to wonder if it had rabies not 'omg, a wild animal is coming to get me!!!' And I too am not super-rural: it's not like I'm out in the Alaskan tundra fending off polar bears and caribou or something. ;)
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LOL I know right? It wasn't that long ago bears where walking through my back yard. If anything, seeing a fox would have to wonder if it had rabies not 'omg, a wild animal is coming to get me!!!' And I too am not super-rural: it's not like I'm out in the Alaskan tundra fending off polar bears and caribou or something. ;)Walking around town? Call for animal control! That thing might bite the children!You must live in a very different sort of place than I do (and I don't mean that in any sort of snarky or demeaning way, just that different people have different experiences). In my experience if anyone suggested calling animal control for anything less than a mountain lion, people would roll their eyes at you. And it's not like I live in some super rural area either.
In the burbs of montreal, when the fox family would come into my yard I'd call the neighbours over and we'd take videos !
We had a facebook chat going on to warn others when they could take delightful fox pics!
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I suspect in Golarion that alert guards would target foxes, and most anything else that Pest Form could turn you into. Not only are there low-level polymorph effects, but familiars, lycanthropes, and fey too. People aren't starting with our modern mindsets (that still have much woo to unlearn) then learning what magic is possible. They live in a world with abundant magic so their unfettered fears and superstitions can run amok (and somewhat justfiably!). An intelligent creature in animal form seems a default concept for them to accept and be wary of, especially since most natural animals avoid campsites.
I think the normal reaction would be to scare away small animals; partly because attacking would be taxing, but also because rampant violence might piss off nature spirits, druids, etc. Then if the animal remained or returned, that might require a bit more oomph.
Not that there couldn't be ignorant folk (especially in a different setting), but those would be exceptions IMO. I can imagine that Golarion's hunters would make a point of their target seeing them early so any intelligent ones can say "Whoa, whoa, not a meal! Don't kill me or my mother will wipe out your village." "Yeah, sorry, we thought we got the word out in the sylvan community that we'd be hunting on Moondays."
So yeah, fox form useful for the size in special instances, but not so much for its form, not like a cat in a city (and even then I'd think learned leaders would instruct their guards to drive off felines from spaces worth guarding).
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Hmmm... Castilliano's certainly got a point.
I mean, I'm in the same boat as Vali Nepjarson et al. wherein I live less than a mile from a major highway but no one I know would call animal control for anything that's unlikely to eat my neighbor's dog. We get dear, turkeys, foxes, etc. and think nothing of it. Buuuuut, if I knew there was a chance the fox was some dude snooping around the neighborhood? Yeah, I feel like that might be a little less cute, haha. It probably depends on how common shapeshifters / polymorphers are in the area and how tight the security is.
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I suspect in Golarion that alert guards would target foxes, and most anything else that Pest Form could turn you into. Not only are there low-level polymorph effects, but familiars, lycanthropes, and fey too. People aren't starting with our modern mindsets (that still have much woo to unlearn) then learning what magic is possible. They live in a world with abundant magic so their unfettered fears and superstitions can run amok (and somewhat justfiably!). An intelligent creature in animal form seems a default concept for them to accept and be wary of, especially since most natural animals avoid campsites.
I think the normal reaction would be to scare away small animals; partly because attacking would be taxing, but also because rampant violence might piss off nature spirits, druids, etc. Then if the animal remained or returned, that might require a bit more oomph.
Not that there couldn't be ignorant folk (especially in a different setting), but those would be exceptions IMO. I can imagine that Golarion's hunters would make a point of their target seeing them early so any intelligent ones can say "Whoa, whoa, not a meal! Don't kill me or my mother will wipe out your village." "Yeah, sorry, we thought we got the word out in the sylvan community that we'd be hunting on Moondays."
As a GM I'd restrict that to guards that are trained in Arcana/Primal .... seems like a stretch to kill all the animals all the time when they probably don't SEE a lot of magic, just hear about it.
Unless they're otherwise directed by a superior.
If we take kingmaker for exemple: The staglord's fort guards ? They see critters all the time and probly wouldn't do s$$!.
Fort Drelev guards who have a powerful and cunning wizard in their team? They probly do.
As a GM I'd restrict that to guards that are trained in Arcana/Primal .... seems like a stretch to kill all the animals all the time when they probably don't SEE a lot of magic, just hear about it.
Unless they're otherwise directed by a superior.
If we take kingmaker for exemple: The staglord's fort guards ? They see critters all the time and probly wouldn't do s$~!.
Fort Drelev guards who have a powerful and cunning wizard in their team? They probly do.
Remember the fox form doesn't automatically stop a normal perception check for them to realize you are not a fox. They'd see a fox moving at the speed of a turtle.
And having terrain to hide in often will mean you have terrain that is difficult to move in, which means its terrain you cannot sneak in.
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As a GM I'd restrict that to guards that are trained in Arcana/Primal .... seems like a stretch to kill all the animals all the time when they probably don't SEE a lot of magic, just hear about it.
Unless they're otherwise directed by a superior.
If we take kingmaker for exemple: The staglord's fort guards ? They see critters all the time and probly wouldn't do s$~!.
Fort Drelev guards who have a powerful and cunning wizard in their team? They probly do.
Remember the fox form doesn't automatically stop a normal perception check for them to realize you are not a fox. They'd see a fox moving at the speed of a turtle.
And having terrain to hide in often will mean you have terrain that is difficult to move in, which means its terrain you cannot sneak in.
Also, the guards' "knowledge" doesn't need to be knowledge; it only needs to be superstition, likely sown in a tavern rather than a lesson. Look how prevalent such tales are worldwide on Earth where no such things exist. Now imagine Golarion where those tales are compounded by actual events. One could argue those Trained might be less inclined to respond violently because they'll know (or think they know) how to discern. I'd think elite organization would make a point of sweeping areas with Detect Magic.
And the context was in scaring off strange animals first, not going on a killing spree. I could imagine that severity in some contexts though. Much like a fortress might clear cut back to trebuchet range, patrols might clear out/drive off animals in a certain radius around key areas.
Birds and cows would likely make better, less suspect forms to take.
I think a good rule of thumb is that members of organizations are savvy to tactics up to their own level, doubly so if they have access to those same tactics (perhaps through allies or items). This keeps them competent at the level of the narrative; tricks the party may have used against the mayor won't necessarily work vs. the duke and would seem quaint to those protecting the king. How hands on or paranoid the leaders are would also factor in, I'd think.
But as pointed out, becoming a fox is a low-level ability, about measurable to a flexible Cantrip (Gnome) so by that measure it's pretty useful. Enemies may suspect animal spies at a certain point, yet PCs can then go invisible, and have the size to wiggle in through less guarded routes. Not that I'd recommend that in this party-based system (!), but I could imagine a team of fox-shaped PCs infiltrating at full strength to a reach a key target.
If you're a party of kitsune that can transform into foxes, at least until level 5 you are not a party of kitsune that can transform into humans. So you'd be fox shaped humanoids most of the time.
And Low level? If you take damage, you're taking 6 points of damage at minimum. While HP has slightly bumped up from pf1 days, it hasn't bumped up that much. The slightest bit of damage to you can prove to be nearly fatal if not actually fatal.
Pest Form seems to be a go-to for Paizo as Ratfolk can choose to become a suicidal rat at level 9. Flexible Cantrip? I'm not sure what feature that is, but if we're gonna compare it to anything, lets use the other Kitsune who get to become Human (Or humanoid race looking)
1) The Humanoid Kitsune do not lose movement speed.
2) The humanoid Kitusne do not lose the ability to speak.
3) the humanoid kitsune do not lose the ability to use magic.
4) The humanoid kitsune do not gain the ability to accelerate the amount of damage they take.
At level 5, the humanoid kitsune can take an ability that gives them an hour to wear a different face when they take their humanoid form. Or they can take a feat that allows them to bring their unarmed attacks with them into the humanoid form.
Fox Kitsune get the ability to talk in fox form. Or take a feat so they can too have the superior humanoid form.
It isn't like the fox form ones get anything amazing either along with the fox form. A 1d6 unarmed strike, or the Demoralizing Stare feat (Without actually getting the feat) and some temp hp when you do.
Meanwhile the three tailess get
+1 Saves vs all divine spells till next turn
A cantrip out of three different cantrips.
Cold damage resistance and ability to have a much easier time though cold environments.
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And Low level? If you take damage, you're taking 6 points of damage at minimum.
I'm not sure why you continue to mention this isn't for combat: I think EVERYONE that reads Pest Form understands it on a glance. There really isn't a need keep repeating it. If you need to get through a tiny sized hole, fox form is good. If you need to kill a monster, it's bad. If you think it's a bad option, the easiest solution is to take another option instead of belaboring the fact that you don't like this one. It's not like anyone is claiming it's an amazing feature or anything.
seems like a stretch to kill all the animals all the time when they probably don't SEE a lot of magic, just hear about it.
I think the bigger issue is in the right environment, you're killing a LOT on animals when you're paranoid enough to think every tiny animal is a threat... Do they pay someone to get rid of the piles of dead squirrels, rabbits, birds, fox, ect that litter the area or do they just let them lay there to attract actual predator that are real dangers?
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seems like a stretch to kill all the animals all the time when they probably don't SEE a lot of magic, just hear about it.I think the bigger issue is in the right environment, you're killing a LOT on animals when you're paranoid enough to think every tiny animal is a threat... Do they pay someone to get rid of the piles of dead squirrels, rabbits, birds, fox, ect that litter the area or do they just let them lay there to attract actual predator that are real dangers?Or in a world where even farmers know that wizards exist as well as shapeshifter creatures.
I'd expect even a group of thugs to be paranoid if they found something next to their hideout.
Best outcome, the thugs get the infiltrator.
Worst outcome, fox for dinner.
This kinda thing happens in fantasy books as well. Specifically in Wheel of Time, rats and crows are considered minions of "the dark one" by many people.
Most people kinda dismiss it as superstition and give it lip service, but turns out it's true and later on there are cities where the rulers pay gold per crow/rat carcass turned in.
So I could see a guard chasing away wildlife/killing it if possible, and other guards might just think it's nonsense and not bother.
And Low level? If you take damage, you're taking 6 points of damage at minimum.I'm not sure why you continue to mention this isn't for combat: I think EVERYONE that reads Pest Form understands it on a glance. There really isn't a need keep repeating it. If you need to get through a tiny sized hole, fox form is good. If you need to kill a monster, it's bad. If you think it's a bad option, the easiest solution is to take another option instead of belaboring the fact that you don't like this one. It's not like anyone is claiming it's an amazing feature or anything.
Because you only ever take damage when you're in combat. Also, combat only happens when the players go "Okay lets start combat now." and they can say "No, I don't want to start combat right now farmer Ted."
Fact of the matter is you take damage from all kinds of things. Physical damage. Didn't do good on your jump? Splat. Stubbed your toe on a the curb? Splat.
BBEBG's minions were told to look out for an elf, fox, dwarf, and human just so happen to see a fox that waddling around trying to pretend to be a normal fox to do scouting? Better hope you roll high on your init to avoid that.
You've brought up multiple times "Oh well you'd just be like all the other animals." Which are like.. animals that have territories and stuff. And now there is this fox waddling its pudgy fat self through their turf?
Sure, I won't use this option. Show me the option that lets me play a kitsune that can become a fox that doesn't suck and I'll play that instead. Oh, they'll probably not make that, because this one exists in its mighty "battle form".
Really the easiest solution is to make things that don't suck. Like it would be pretty simple. One, give it a real movement speed, two let it use its unarmored defense, and three remove the damage vulnerability. If these things are -way too much power- for a first level character to handle because they're able to slip through tiny cracks at first level, then give the effect to hybrid form feat.
While a 'rare' ancestry, Sprites have tiny size, 20 movement speed and no vulnerability to damage
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Or in a world where even farmers know that wizards exist as well as shapeshifter creatures.
We're talking about percentages: how many wizards and/or shapeshifters does said farmer meet in a lifetime vs how many normal animals they see in a day. If you're in a rural area and jump at EVERY SINGLE tiny animal, you're going to have a bad time.
I'd expect even a group of thugs to be paranoid if they found something next to their hideout.
Again, you have to weigh how many wizards and shapeshifters you might see vs how many mundane animals you see in a day. I've seen dozens of birds around my house today and I'm not in an overly rural area.
Best outcome, the thugs get the infiltrator.
Worst outcome, fox for dinner.
But that's kind of the point: it wouldn't be JUST that fox or does your world not have a plethora of normal animals running around? I have a HARD time imagining those thugs not seeing dozens of animals around the area in a day [well until they deplete the population I guess]. It's not like that 1 fox is the ONLY animal that ever shows up.
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Because you only ever take damage when you're in combat.
Maybe don't use it when you are likely to take damage?
Fact of the matter is you take damage from all kinds of things. Physical damage. Didn't do good on your jump? Splat. Stubbed your toe on a the curb? Splat.
Why are you doing things that might cause damage when you know you'd take more damage? That's be on you and not the ability.
BBEBG's minions were told to look out for an elf, fox, dwarf, and human just so happen to see a fox that waddling around trying to pretend to be a normal fox to do scouting? Better hope you roll high on your init to avoid that.
If you're scouting and not in cover, that's on you... Secondly, if you come under fire, you know you can always take an action and change right?
You've brought up multiple times "Oh well you'd just be like all the other animals." Which are like.. animals that have territories and stuff. And now there is this fox waddling its pudgy fat self through their turf?
random animal can attack you anytime if that's what the DM wants: fox form doesn't add into it.
Sure, I won't use this option. Show me the option that lets me play a kitsune that can become a fox that doesn't suck and I'll play that instead. Oh, they'll probably not make that, because this one exists in its mighty "battle form".
If you don't like battleforms and such, whining isn't going to change anything. You have the option to play with them or not. There are several things in the game I think suck, but I know they aren't going to change things this far into the game.
Really the easiest solution is to make things that don't suck.
Well, it'd be one thing if everyone agreed it sucked: they don't though. You aren't going to get a PF1 type fox form of death and the only option is to not take it if you think it sucks in PF2.
While I think I would personally home-brew the speed of the fox form I don't really mind the rest it is mostly a utility/fluff thing ( in fact i view both forms as mostly just a fluff thing).
I can understanding shooing away creatures. That being said PC's have to make knowledge checks about abilities of creatures and while I don't think DM's should be making an npc make knowledge checks for every little thing, if it's something that a PC would have to make an equivalent check for I don't think *every* NPC should automatically assumed to have that knowledge.
Superstitions and paranoia make sense. Guards who have bosses, or who themselves are knowledgeable in magic make sense. But not everyone will.
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Taking your example, if you were in a fantasy world and your family ( or neighborhood ) were killed by savage crows with red eyes, you'll be terrified hearing flapping or any single time you hear a "kraaaaaaaa". There's a high chance for you to become paranoid.
Sure, but that isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about some unknown that 'might' happen or something you might have heard of. Has the thugs or farmer from the examples we're been talking bout seen one of these things? a shape changing wizard? A fey? A shapeshifter? Is it really something that affects there daily life enough to track down tiny animals?
Some unspecified shape-changer could be anything, anywhere so kill everything!!! By your logic, they should kill anyone they see because some random wizard or shapechanger could look like that. That tree, your neighbor, your cat... heck YOU might be one! :P
IMO, I just don't see this level of paranoia sustainable or viable, especially in an area if it doesn't have frequent issues with this kind of thing. Hearing old wives tales about fey and wizards are far different from actual dangers you've seen.
And on top of everything, it's a bit oxymoronic to shoot because you thing it's a wizard or shapechanger when it's not doing anything dangerous. Are those the kind of creatures you want to upset? Would a normal arrow slay such a creature? Or would it get a fireball or lightning bolt in return? Or a very upset druid bringing a storm. How about a vengeful fey? Is the best course to piss it off?
Heck, in your world, you'd never be able to cast animal messenger. :P
I ask because, as far as I know, becoming a combat fox from lvl 1-20 isn't something affordable at the moment ( because, as far as I recall, it does not exist a spell which gives you the possibility to use the form you want, scaling it from lvl 1 to level 10 ).
The combat form is the 17th level racial feat Rampaging Form that acts as a 5th-level animal form and 7th-level fiery body for 1 minute/day. Other than that, your fox form doesn't advance.
you don't have the option to play with them or not, since they are not reliable ( a battleform is meant to be used in a battle, and you won't use a lvl 5 battleform with a lvl 17 character ).
I mean, it would be like saying "it's up to you to decide whether to blast with a lvl 10 fireball or using a lvl 2 acid arrow" like there was a choice at all.
You DO though: you do not have to play with a kitsune that changes into a fox. You have the 3 options to change into one with a human form. So it's a false dilemma: it's 100% the players choice if they want a battleform as no one if forcing them to take or use it or even play a kitsune for that matter.
If you don't like battleforms and such, whining isn't going to change anything. You have the option to play with them or not. There are several things in the game I think suck, but I know they aren't going to change things this far into the game.
Really the easiest solution is to make things that don't suck.Well, it'd be one thing if everyone agreed it sucked: they don't though. You aren't going to get a PF1 type fox form of death and the only option is to not take it if you think it sucks in PF2.
Its not battleforms that is the problem. Its that they keep going back to this one specific spell for every ancestry that so much gets the slightest ability to transform into an animal.
Ratfolk can get it at level 9
Beastfolk could pick up at level one for an hour at a time, or at will later on.
Kitsune can get it at level one.
I was mocking the idea that this thing is a "battleform" despite it being something more likely to cause your death than to really be useful.
random animal can attack you anytime if that's what the DM wants: fox form doesn't add into it.
Fox form can make for an animal that wouldn't attack a human but attack a fox more likely to attack you since you are a fox. And you'd not be able to get away while maintain your disguise because you move at the literal speed of a turtle.
Like I said, there are three things that would make it functional for anyone but the nicest Dm in the world who never ambushes the players with traps or combat.
1) Don't lose your normal speed
2) Don't gain Vunerability to damage
3) Don't lose your normal unarmored AC.
If this and being small is is too much power for an uncommon ancestry to have at level 1 (Since there is a rare ancestry at level 1 that is tiny.) then give these changes to hybrid form or whatever for the kitsune.
I agree, but it was you the one who said that it was up to him whether to use a battleform or not.
I'm not seeing the difference: if he didn't want to use the form, it's on him. Now he might want to do so for some other benefit of the heritage, but if he hate the fox form, he never has to change into it.
Its not battleforms that is the problem. Its that they keep going back to this one specific spell for every ancestry that so much gets the slightest ability to transform into an animal.
Yes, that that spell is a battleform spell so...
I was mocking the idea that this thing is a "battleform" despite it being something more likely to cause your death than to really be useful.
I understand.
Fox form can make for an animal that wouldn't attack a human but attack a fox more likely to attack you since you are a fox. And you'd not be able to get away while maintain your disguise because you move at the literal speed of a turtle.
There isn't much of a difference really: any animal with stats is the kind that has the possibility to attack you normally. Also, sprites also have that size and I haven't seen random animals attack then in the woods that wouldn't attack the other party members.
Secondly, if you're attacked there is little need for keeping your cover.
Like I said, there are three things that would make it functional for anyone but the nicest Dm in the world who never ambushes the players with traps or combat.
1) Don't lose your normal speed
2) Don't gain Vunerability to damage
3) Don't lose your normal unarmored AC.
That's nice and all, but the only way I see those changing is from you getting a houserule made. It is what it is. Also, #3 is the equivalent to trained in unarmed with an 16 dex so it's not bad and it's clear that they link AC to level of spell as animal form is 16+level as a 2nd level spell.
If this and being small is is too much power for an uncommon ancestry to have at level 1 (Since there is a rare ancestry at level 1 that is tiny.) then give these changes to hybrid form or whatever for the kitsune.
It's not that it's too much power for the ancestry but it's too much for that spell. As for hybrid form, it gives relatively minor affects to each form: speech in fox, unarmed attacks or gain a tail in 'human' form. I don't see bumping up AC, speed and removing vulnerability in the cards. Again, you could always hope for houserules.
Or I could hope for Errata, or perhaps something to come along in a latter book. Cause PF2 is still alive and errata is a thing.
And the thing with animals attacking you is because you're like "Oh no guard will care at all that there is animals around because there is like a whole flippin zoo running through guard camps at all hours of the day.
IF you're dropping your cover the moment you get some final fantasy battle music going, there was no point to having the cover in the first place.
And its not just the size of the sprite, its more who is an animal going to attack more? Like you likely haven't seen wolves attack deer in game, even though they do it. If everything is played out like a video game encounter with no respect for ecology or behavior of animals sure, you might end up getting attacked by wolves and sheep just cause that is what the random table rolled.
Another second level spell you have is called Shrink. Makes you Tiny without all the garbage of the battleform that pest shape gives you.
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Or I could hope for Errata
The dev's would have to think it's broken to fix it and I haven't seen any indication of that.
And the thing with animals attacking you is because you're like "Oh no guard will care at all that there is animals around because there is like a whole flippin zoo running through guard camps at all hours of the day.
If there AREN'T animals around in a rural area, something is very wrong in the area. I'm looking out the window and seeing birds fly by all day: I'd be shooting all day if every one was a threat and I'm not super rural.
IF you're dropping your cover the moment you get some final fantasy battle music going, there was no point to having the cover in the first place.
Again, the only thing I've heard was hostile is every single guard in the game world vs small animals. Most animals your size aren't going to bother you [they tend to growl, hiss, ect as a warning before attacking] and larger ones would be a danger in your normal form.
And its not just the size of the sprite, its more who is an animal going to attack more?
Sure, but again I'm not seeing wild animals jumping out of bushes to eat sprites. As to which would it attack more? I think it WOULD be mostly size based. I mean you COULD be attack in fox form by a badger but you also could be bitten by a snake as a human: it's all at the DM's whim and neither is out of place in respect to ecology and behavior. For animals looking for prey, i's be lone creatures smaller than themselves, so both sprites and foxes fit the bill
Another second level spell you have is called Shrink. Makes you Tiny without all the garbage of the battleform that pest shape gives you.
Sure, BUT you aren't getting a 2nd level spell but a 1st level one...
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Or I could hope for Errata, or perhaps something to come along in a latter book. Cause PF2 is still alive and errata is a thing.
There are many heritages that give you the ability to cast first level spells. Most of them only once per day, so Kitsune's got a lot of other heritages beat. It just sounds to me like you don't like pest form, which is fine and all, but definitely not worth an errata for the heritage. If an errata is needed, which I don't think is the case, then it would be for pest form, not for Kitsune.
IF you're dropping your cover the moment you get some final fantasy battle music going, there was no point to having the cover in the first place.
Okay, you lost me there. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm basically reading this as: "attempting to avoid a fight isn't useful if it doesn't help you when a fight breaks out."
Sanity check, please: it's not just me that's confused here, right?
IF you're dropping your cover the moment you get some final fantasy battle music going, there was no point to having the cover in the first place.Okay, you lost me there. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm basically reading this as: "attempting to avoid a fight isn't useful if it doesn't help you when a fight breaks out."
Sanity check, please: it's not just me that's confused here, right?
Thing is, that you're not really even giving the attempt to avoid the fight in the first place. "Don't use it combat!" is the cry about the fact that you increase the likely hood of getting hit and the amount of damage you take, so the moment they feel even the slightest bit in danger, they drop the effect as to not get splattered.
Cause for one, you're not going to be going anywhere in fox form and sneaking. Tall grass is going to be difficult terrain. With a 10 movement speed, you can only reduce it once until you're making no more movement.
Now they could have avoided the fight by just sneaking normally. Since they'd have a 25 movement speed. Or hell, could have even used their disguise skills to disguise as a guard themselves. Both of which would have had a better chance of success.
When I say there is no point to it, I mean they were ready to give up before they even started. They weren't going even try to pretend to be a fox. They were hoping for a chance of apathy as opposed to seizing the opportunity.
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The world of D&D makes very little sense if you drill down into all the details. It is incredibly unrealistic in a great many ways. Eg (I'm begging people to NOT nit pick any individual example)
1) Sword to the chest doesn't kill you
2) Giants move around in violation of the Square Cube Law
3) The economy is borked in SO many ways
4) Amazingly, when you're level N and going from place A to place B you run into challenges appropriate to level N. When you made the exact same trip 5 levels ago you ran into much easier opponents. And when you make the exact same trip 5 levels from now you'll run into much harder opponents.
5) The town guard grunt in some places is pretty much literally MUCH more powerful than the commander of the guard in the city you were born in. The city that controls the village you're currently in
6) A really, really friendly well trained horse (or guard dog) will do NOTHING if its master goes unconscious
7) A horse that can outrun a character out of combat suddenly gets slower than the character as soon as combat starts
8) An elephant can outjump a cat
etc etc etc etc
The solution is to NOT drill down into those details, to NOT think of the world as a simulation. Its a setting designed to let you tell high magic adventure stories with your character as the protagonist. And most people on these forums think it does a pretty darn good job of that (not perfect, but pretty good)
Drilling down is like drilling down in a superhero movie. Oh noes, the ship should break when Superman lifts it, the bad guy should just sell his tech to the government instead of using it to rob banks, etc etc etc.
You're asking for a level of realism that the game very explicitly is NOT designed to support. If you want more realism, there are other games out there that try somewhat harder than D&D (eg, GURPS).
Just accept the genre conventions, accept the rules as they are written. If you don't like something your choices are
1) Play a character that doesn't use things you don't like
2) Make house rules to change it
3) Find another game that is more to your tastes
But complaining about things here really doesn't accomplish much. Yeah, pest form has issues. Everybody pretty much agrees with that. Accept it and move on.