I'm making a fighter with the poisoner archetype, and I was wondering what would happen if I hit two creatures using the Swipe feat while my weapon is poisoned.
An injury poison is activated by applying it to a weapon or ammunition, and it affects the target of the first Strike made using the poisoned item.
You make a wide, arcing swing. Make a single melee Strike and compare the attack roll result to the ACs of up to two foes, each of whom must be within your melee reach and adjacent to the other. Roll damage only once and apply it to each creature you hit.
Since Swipe is "a single melee Strike" that affects two creatures, are both creatures considered "the target of the first Strike" and thus exposed to the poison? Or does the singular "target" imply that a dose of poison can only affect one creature? Or does Swipe technically not have any "target", meaning that neither creature is exposed? If there is only one recipient, how do I determine which creature is affected? And if there are no recipients, is the poison still expended?
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I'd be very surprised if you got a consistent answer on this. I'd expect table variation for sure. I'd personally have you choose which of the two it affects, honing in on two things:
1. It affecting "the" target
2. Injury poisons are, as far as I'm aware, balanced around being applied once to one target before having to be reapplied.
However, since it is called out as "a single melee strike" it's possible you'll have a lenient GM that allows it to apply to both.
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Per RAW, it's supposed to be applied twice as Poison is supposed to work on your first Strike and Swipe is a single Strike.
Per RAI, on the other hand, I think it should only be applied once.
Now, in terms of game balance, Poison and Swipe are both far from being overwhelming, so I don't think you'll break the game whatever ruling your GM choose to apply.
I'd personally have you choose which of the two it affects
Would I make the choice before or after the attack roll?
Since Swipe counts as two attacks for Map,I think I'd lean towards it only effecting one of the two targets.
But it would definitely play well with Sticky Poisons @ lvl 8.
So if I make the DC 17 flat check to keep the weapon poisoned after I hit something, would it also poison the other creature hit?
Also, if I poison two creatures at once, do I need to make two flat checks or not? And if the attack roll against one is a critical failure and against the other is a success (unlikely but possible), would I make one DC 5 flat check and one DC 17 flat check?
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So I showed this thread to my GM and the official ruling is that I only get to poison one creature per attack. Thanks for helping to settle a local dispute. :)
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Per RAW, it's supposed to be applied twice as Poison is supposed to work on your first Strike and Swipe is a single Strike.
Per RAI, on the other hand, I think it should only be applied once.Now, in terms of game balance, Poison and Swipe are both far from being overwhelming, so I don't think you'll break the game whatever ruling your GM choose to apply.
It's not that straight forward by RAW. Take a look at the wording. It says "The target" of your first strike. Singular. That doesn't prove it must be singular, since rules are written with default assumptions in mind, and swipe is a unique case that breaks the rules of there being one target for a strike. However, it can certainly be argued either way in good faith.
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It's not that straight forward by RAW. Take a look at the wording. It says "The target" of your first strike. Singular. That doesn't prove it must be singular, since rules are written with default assumptions in mind, and swipe is a unique case that breaks the rules of there being one target for a strike. However, it can certainly be argued either way in good faith.Per RAW, it's supposed to be applied twice as Poison is supposed to work on your first Strike and Swipe is a single Strike.
Per RAI, on the other hand, I think it should only be applied once.Now, in terms of game balance, Poison and Swipe are both far from being overwhelming, so I don't think you'll break the game whatever ruling your GM choose to apply.
Sneak attack, runes and critical specialization wording are singular (I haven't checked the whole book). Swipe obviously benefits from all of that.
Strike is a single target ability and as such uses the singular, like any feat, class feature and item modifying Strike. So, I think it's straightforward per RAW that both targets should be poisoned.
It's not that straight forward by RAW. Take a look at the wording. It says "The target" of your first strike. Singular. That doesn't prove it must be singular, since rules are written with default assumptions in mind, and swipe is a unique case that breaks the rules of there being one target for a strike. However, it can certainly be argued either way in good faith.Per RAW, it's supposed to be applied twice as Poison is supposed to work on your first Strike and Swipe is a single Strike.
Per RAI, on the other hand, I think it should only be applied once.Now, in terms of game balance, Poison and Swipe are both far from being overwhelming, so I don't think you'll break the game whatever ruling your GM choose to apply.
Sneak attack, runes and critical specialization wording are singular (I haven't checked the whole book). Swipe obviously benefits from all of that.
Strike is a single target ability and as such uses the singular, like any feat, class feature and item modifying Strike. So, I think it's straightforward per RAW that both targets should be poisoned.
This is clearly a false equivalency as none of the listed effects are single use. Sneak attack, runes, and critical specializations all happen on any strike(s) that qualify whereas poison goes away after a successful strike (or a crit fail). Like I said, what I quoted wasn't proof, but saying something can only reasonably be interpreted one way is a pretty big claim, and I'm not seeing the evidence to back it up.
P.S.
You might want to double check your claims next time, because although you're right about some critical specialization effects (and perhaps some runes. Idk, there's a lot and I didn't check them all), but sneak attack and many runes have effects based on "if you hit", "if you strike a creature with...", etc.
That is very different from the specific reference both to targeting and the first strike in Injury Poisons.
Note: This is in a P.S. and not the main body because it's irrelevant to my point. Moreover crit specs do, in fact, have very similar wording (but notably happen whenever you crit, and would therefore trigger twice regardless). I just figured I'd point it out.
This is clearly a false equivalency as none of the listed effects are single use.
That's why I said that per RAW it works, but per RAI it shouldn't.
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I'm making a fighter with the poisoner archetype, and I was wondering what would happen if I hit two creatures using the Swipe feat while my weapon is poisoned.
An injury poison is activated by applying it to a weapon or ammunition, and it affects the target of the first Strike made using the poisoned item.You make a wide, arcing swing. Make a single melee Strike and compare the attack roll result to the ACs of up to two foes, each of whom must be within your melee reach and adjacent to the other. Roll damage only once and apply it to each creature you hit.Since Swipe is "a single melee Strike" that affects two creatures, are both creatures considered "the target of the first Strike" and thus exposed to the poison? Or does the singular "target" imply that a dose of poison can only affect one creature? Or does Swipe technically not have any "target", meaning that neither creature is exposed? If there is only one recipient, how do I determine which creature is affected? And if there are no recipients, is the poison still expended?
Interesting Question. Read the whole ability though
You make a wide, arcing swing. Make a single melee Strike and compare the attack roll result to the ACs of up to two foes, each of whom must be within your melee reach and adjacent to the other. Roll damage only once and apply it to each creature you hit. A Swipe counts as two attacks for your multiple attack penalty. If you’re using a weapon with the sweep trait, its modifier applies to all your Swipe attacks
The text sort of contradicts itself
1.Roll one Strike - that is only one attack
2.Apply the strike damage to both
3.Counts as two attacks for MAP - a hint only
4.Modifier applies to all your Swipe attacks - plural - meaning both targets of the one roll.
So trying to read it as RAW as possible first: It says it is one one attack on two targets. But then it says it is two attacks
AFAICT it is one attack that copies its damage to a second target. I read it so say that any extra damage in the strike will apply to both. There is no text suggesting any other condition that happens to the first target happens to the second. But if there are any triggered effects like poison they just effect the first target. There are clearly two targets here, one of which is first.
So my answer is no only the first is potentially poisoned. But I wouldn't be upset with other rulings. It is a mess.
Which does lead to the odd situation. Perhaps you are applying your precision damage to the first target because they are flat footed, but the second is not flat footed to you, I would still have the second target suffer the precision damage as well.
BTW the poison rules say
Injury: An injury poison is activated by applying it to a weapon or ammunition, and it affects the target of the first Strike made using the poisoned item. If that Strike is a success and deals piercing or slashing damage, the target must attempt a saving throw against the poison. On a failed Strike, the target is unaffected, but the poison remains on the weapon and you can try again. On a critical failure, or if the Strike fails to deal slashing or piercing damage for some other reason, the poison is spent but the target is unaffected.
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It's not that straight forward by RAW. Take a look at the wording. It says "The target" of your first strike. Singular. That doesn't prove it must be singular, since rules are written with default assumptions in mind, and swipe is a unique case that breaks the rules of there being one target for a strike. However, it can certainly be argued either way in good faith.Per RAW, it's supposed to be applied twice as Poison is supposed to work on your first Strike and Swipe is a single Strike.
Per RAI, on the other hand, I think it should only be applied once.Now, in terms of game balance, Poison and Swipe are both far from being overwhelming, so I don't think you'll break the game whatever ruling your GM choose to apply.
Yes this is one strike, but two attacks, that targets two creatures.
"Target" can be for multiple creatures when you use it as a verb but that is not the case here.
Of course the rule is written that there is only one target for a strike so yeah the GM has to interpret.
Either way the Poison applying twice seems unintended and too strong. Clearly it requires some interpretation. The damage applies to both, but I can't see that I have to copy anything else over.
If only they had written it like Whirlwind strike instead.