If I am reading the rules on critical immunity correctly, it would have no effect on a critical hit from a spell like Hydraulic Push, as Hydraulic push does not double the damage of a critical hit but give a separate effect for a critical hit than a regular hit?
This makes it incredibly good against oozes, but that seems to really fit the spell thematically, as it is seriously diluting them.
|
Oozes are immune to Critical Hits (also known as a Critical Success), which tells us "Other attacks, such as spell attack rolls...describe the specific effects that occur when their outcomes are critical successes".
Hydraulic Push is one of those such spells, so it seems an Ooze would be immune to that as well?
But, of note, Oozes are not immune to Critical Failures, so switch to using spells with Reflex saves.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Immunity to critical hits works a little differently. When a creature immune to critical hits is critically hit by a Strike or other attack that deals damage, it takes normal damage instead of double damage. This does not make it immune to any other critical success effects of other actions that have the attack trait (such as Grapple and Shove).
Hydraulic push does not do double damage. Immunity specifically says it does not make the creature immune to any other critical success effects than doubling of damage.
Oozes are immune to Critical Hits (also known as a Critical Success), which tells us "Other attacks, such as spell attack rolls...describe the specific effects that occur when their outcomes are critical successes".
Hydraulic Push is one of those such spells, so it seems an Ooze would be immune to that as well?
But, of note, Oozes are not immune to Critical Failures, so switch to using spells with Reflex saves.
Oozes have bad reflex saves, but not nearly as bad as their AC.
Shocking grasp can't do any extra damage targeting an ooze, as its effect doubles on a critical success, but hydraulic push has a separate critical success effect, just like those other attack actions like shove and grapple) so I am pretty sure you can't ignore its effect.
For example, if you cast a level 3 hydraulic push, your critical success effect is to do 10d6 damage and push the target 10ft. The regular success effect is to do 7d6 damage and push the target 5ft. That pretty clearly falls outside of what immunity is doing.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Immunity to critical hits works a little differently. When a creature immune to critical hits is critically hit by a Strike or other attack that deals damage, it takes normal damage instead of double damage. This does not make it immune to any other critical success effects of other actions that have the attack trait (such as Grapple and Shove).Hydraulic push does not do double damage. Immunity specifically says it does not make the creature immune to any other critical success effects than doubling of damage.
I mean I linked to the relevant sections and quoted the relevant rules. I don't know what else you want.
I mean I linked to the relevant sections and quoted the relevant rules. I don't know what else you want.Immunity to critical hits works a little differently. When a creature immune to critical hits is critically hit by a Strike or other attack that deals damage, it takes normal damage instead of double damage. This does not make it immune to any other critical success effects of other actions that have the attack trait (such as Grapple and Shove).Hydraulic push does not do double damage. Immunity specifically says it does not make the creature immune to any other critical success effects than doubling of damage.
I quoted the exact rule of Immunity to critical hits. Note it does NOT make you immune to anything except the double damage of a critical hit from a strike or attack that deals damage. It even goes further to say that critical success effects are not subject to critical immunity. The 6d6 base damage of the critical success on hydraulic push is not a doubling of the damage, especially with how you would apply heightening.
A critical hit isn't doubling damage, it's if you make an attack action and roll 10 above the target AC or specified DC. Anything like this they are immune to.
Technically you can't even Critically Shove an ooze.
I understand why someone would think this at first, but the rules for critical immunity make it clear that it is only the doubling of damage that critical immunity prevents. This also means that any runes that trigger on critical hits are also going to trigger against a creature with this immunity.
Technically you can't even Critically Shove an ooze.
This is literally an example that the text goes out of it's way to say is wrong in plain English.
Immunities acid, critical hits, mental, precision, unconscious, visual
And from immunities:
Immunity to critical hits works a little differently. When a creature immune to critical hits is critically hit by a Strike or other attack that deals damage, it takes normal damage instead of double damage. This does not make it immune to any other critical success effects of other actions that have the attack trait (such as Grapple and Shove).
|
A critical hit isn't doubling damage, it's if you make an attack action and roll 10 above the target AC or specified DC. Anything like this they are immune to.
Technically you can't even Critically Shove an ooze.
You can absolutely critically shove an ooze. Immunity to critical hits only makes you immune to the double damage effect of a critical hit.
Immunity
Immunity to critical hits works a little differently. When a creature immune to critical hits is critically hit by a Strike or other attack that deals damage, it takes normal damage instead of double damage. This does not make it immune to any other critical success effects of other actions that have the attack trait (such as Grapple and Shove).
Ah, I see it's in the Immunities section. It would have helped to be linked this info in the first place. Thank you Red Metal for finding this and clarifying the situation.
As for Hydraulic Push, it's worded very weirdly. I wish it were just double damage, because how it is now a level 10 Hydraulic Push does 21d6 on a success and 24d6 on a crit success. Hardly a difference in damage at that level.
A critical hit isn't doubling damage, it's if you make an attack action and roll 10 above the target AC or specified DC. Anything like this they are immune to.
Technically you can't even Critically Shove an ooze.
You can absolutely critically shove an ooze. Immunity to critical hits only makes you immune to the double damage effect of a critical hit.
Immunity
Immunity to critical hits works a little differently. When a creature immune to critical hits is critically hit by a Strike or other attack that deals damage, it takes normal damage instead of double damage. This does not make it immune to any other critical success effects of other actions that have the attack trait (such as Grapple and Shove).Ah, I see it's in the Immunities section. It would have helped to be linked this info in the first place. Thank you Red Metal for finding this and clarifying the situation.
As for Hydraulic Push, it's worded very weirdly. I wish it were just double damage, because how it is now a level 10 Hydraulic Push does 21d6 on a success and 24d6 on a crit success. Hardly a difference in damage at that level.
I think that was an intentional limit on its power growth as a heightening spell. It just has an interesting, albeit not that game breaking effect on how the spell interacts with oozes.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That italicized sentence doesn't mean what you think it means, and it doesn't conflict with what I'm saying.
Grapple and Shove are their own actions. We're being told that Critical Successes of those actions are unaffected by Immunity to Critical Hits.
That's not what's happening with Hydraulic Push, though.
It doesn't matter that a Critical Success with Hydraulic Push deals different damage than double, it's still categorized as a Critical Hit (by the definition and example I linked), and as such, an Ooze would be immune to it.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
It means exactly what it says it means: That critical hit immunity works differently. It then proceeds to explain how it works differently and what specifically it negates.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
That italicized sentence doesn't mean what you think it means, and it doesn't conflict with what I'm saying.
Grapple and Shove are their own actions. We're being told that Critical Successes of those actions are unaffected by Immunity to Critical Hits.
That's not what's happening with Hydraulic Push, though.
It doesn't matter that a Critical Success with Hydraulic Push deals different damage than double, it's still categorized as a Critical Hit (by the definition and example I linked), and as such, an Ooze would be immune to it.
No it is not though. There are spells that do double damage on a critical hit, and I totally agree those spells would not be subject to doubling their damage. But the structure of hydraulic push is exactly like the structure of grapple and shove. It has a critical success description that lists its own specific damage to deal. Not damage done on top of damage for a regular success. If it was supposed to do what you want it to do it would make a lot more sense to say that it reduces the damage done by the attack to the damage of a regular success, rather than explicitly stating not to double it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Because the definition of immunity to critical hits specifies that it does not provide you immunity to critical hits, only the doubling of damage from critical hits from strikes and attacks that do damage. None of that applies to Hydraulic push.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think the problem lies in the Immunity to Critical Hits being really weird. Why does it only stop the doubling of damage? If I Crit something that's immune to crits with a Disintegrate, do I still lower the enemy's save by one step?
Honestly, immunity to crits needs to be fixed.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think the problem lies in the Immunity to Critical Hits being really weird. Why does it only stop the doubling of damage? If I Crit something that's immune to crits with a Disintegrate, do I still lower the enemy's save by one step?
Honestly, immunity to crits needs to be fixed.
Absolutely you would lower the save by one step. I think they deliberately worded it the way they did to make sure that it would only impact the direct damage of attacks. Spell, other than direct attacks that double damage on crits, seem very intentionally left out from critical immunity. It would have been really easy to just say "Critical Immunity reduces all attacks to standard success, or to failure on saving throws" if it was supposed to do that.
|
Why are you focused on dealing double damage, when the definition of Critical Hits I linked in my first post doesn't care about that?
It literally covers spell attacks that don't deal double damage, which seems to perfectly encompass Hydraulic Push.
Sorry for the wall of text, but to be clear I am going to post the entirety of the two rules sections...
I think your confusion comes from looking at the wrong rule and thinking it applies to the OP question.
The definition you link to is the general rule for Critical Hits:
"Critical Hits
Source Core Rulebook pg. 278 2.0
When you make an attack and succeed with a natural 20 (the number on the die is 20), or if the result of your attack exceeds the target's AC by 10, you achieve a critical success (also known as a critical hit).
If you critically succeed at a Strike, your attack deals double damage. Other attacks, such as spell attack rolls and some uses of the Athletics skill, describe the specific effects that occur when their outcomes are critical successes."
The rule actually applicable to the OP question is the rule on Immunity, which contains a specific exception for immunity to critical hits (which I have bolded below):
"Immunity
Source Core Rulebook pg. 451 2.0
When you have immunity to a specific type of damage, you ignore all damage of that type. If you have immunity to a specific condition or type of effect, you can't be affected by that condition or any effect of that type. You can still be targeted by an ability that includes an effect or condition you are immune to; you just don't apply that particular effect or condition.
If you have immunity to effects with a certain trait (such as death effects, poison, or disease), you are unaffected by effects with that trait. Often, an effect has a trait and deals that type of damage (this is especially true in the case of energy damage types). In these cases, the immunity applies to the effect corresponding to the trait, not just the damage. However, some complex effects might have parts that affect you even if you're immune to one of the effect's traits; for instance, a spell that deals both fire and acid damage can still deal acid damage to you even if you're immune to fire.
Immunity to critical hits works a little differently. When a creature immune to critical hits is critically hit by a Strike or other attack that deals damage, it takes normal damage instead of double damage. This does not make it immune to any other critical success effects of other actions that have the attack trait (such as Grapple and Shove).
Another exception is immunity to nonlethal attacks. If you are immune to nonlethal attacks, you are immune to all damage from attacks with the nonlethal trait, no matter what other type the damage has. For instance, a stone golem has immunity to nonlethal attacks. This means that no matter how hard you hit it with your fist, you're not going to damage it—unless your fists don't have the nonlethal trait, such as if you're a monk."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think the problem lies in the Immunity to Critical Hits being really weird. Why does it only stop the doubling of damage? If I Crit something that's immune to crits with a Disintegrate, do I still lower the enemy's save by one step?
Yes, you still treat the result as one step lower, because that's not doubling damage. As for why they chose to make immunity to crits work that way I'm not sure, but there's nothing inherently wrong with it.
Honestly, immunity to crits needs to be fixed.
Okay, but... why? It sounds like an intentional choice to me. Though, I'll admit that without looking it up it's not clear, and it would probably be best if the information about critical hit immunities were both in immunities and critical hits, because someone looking it up may only look in one of those two spots.
|
|
I think the problem lies in the Immunity to Critical Hits being really weird. Why does it only stop the doubling of damage? If I Crit something that's immune to crits with a Disintegrate, do I still lower the enemy's save by one step?
Honestly, immunity to crits needs to be fixed.
The rule is actually quite clear to me, at least. Keep in mind that the Disintegrate spell itself is a little weird.
"You fire a green ray at your target. Make a spell attack. You deal 12d10 damage, and the target must attempt a basic Fortitude save. On a critical hit, treat the save result as one degree worse. A creature reduced to 0 HP is reduced to fine powder; its gear remains."
Disintegrate is an Attack spell. It specifically calls out a spell attack check which can, as usual, be a critical hit that does double damage. What makes it unusual is that it ALSO calls for a Basic Fortitude save, which can result in NO damage on a critical success, to double damage on a critical failure.
So, as I read it, Disintegrate is VERY swingy. You can effectively get quadruple damage (you critically succeed on the attack roll, then the target critically fails on the basic fortitude save) or NO Damage (either you miss or, even if you hit but don't critically hit, the target might get a critical success on the basic fortitude save).
NOTE however, that on a disintegrate, if you critically hit, the target's basic fortitude save is one worse, so even if the target gets a critical success, they cannot avoid all damage since their critical success turns into an ordinary success. In this situation, the target takes normal damage (doubled for the critical, then halved for the success).
I haven't gone through the spell list to check, but my recollection is that Disintegrate is unique (or at least unusual) in this regards. Most damage spells are either attack or save, not both.
NINJA'd in a much more succinct manner by Aw3som3-117!
|
|
I know what the rule is, I was just trying to point out that Disintegrate can bypass crit immunity to deal double damage on a crit.
If you crit and the target fails their save, that's a crit fail, which doubles the damage.
If you crit and the target succeeds on their save, that's a fail, which is double the half damage.
Everything below this line is conjecture and personal opinions, I am NOT stating this as RAW.
Now I don't think this was the intent behind crit immunity. I think when they wrote out the rule for it, they neglected to take Spell Attacks that have different die numbers into account. Notice how it doesn't mention spell attacks in the immunity rules, only strikes, "attacks that deal damage", and attacks that deal no damage.
This also ignores the whole premise of creatures immune to crits. They have no weak points, every part of their body is just as vulnerable as any other part. Where exactly would you hit an ooze that makes them less likely to succeed on their save VS disintegrate?
Based on this hypotheses, I believe I have an elegant way to fix the language in the immunity section:
"Immunity to critical hits works a little differently. Attacks that target the AC of a creature who is immune to critical hits can not critically succeed."
This sticks with the premise that creatures immune to crits have no weak points, while also allowing things like trip and shove to continue working. Yes it's a buff, but I believe this closer to the initial intent behind crits before they made it way too wordy.
I mean, yeah, if that's what they meant that would be a good way to say it. It remains to be seen that that's the case, and I see no particular evidence for that to be the case other than the fact that there's some clunky wording, but hey, it's a concise and mechanically complete homebrew at least.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think you are missing the point of disintegrate having an attack roll if you think the spell was intended to be limited by critical hit immunity. The added spell attack roll is already a mitigating effect on disintegrated power. The attack roll itself is completely not related to the spells damage. More that hitting a vital area, you are aiming to hit as much of the target as possible the the spell.
It is pretty clear that the intent of critical hit immunity is to focus on attack rolls, not saving throws. There is a little more ambiguity with some spell attack roll spells, but the specificity of critical hit immunity in calling out the attack rolls that do damage and double on a crit does make it pretty clear this to handle raw.
It is something every table should feel free to house rule as they want, but spells are already pretty up against it against creatures with horrible ACs and crit immunity as far as their damage potential compared to a martial, so I’d be careful about house rules that penalize casters.
Disintegrate is an Attack spell. It specifically calls out a spell attack check which can, as usual, be a critical hit that does double damage. What makes it unusual is that it ALSO calls for a Basic Fortitude save, which can result in NO damage on a critical success, to double damage on a critical failure.
Btw, this is a little off topic, since the point isn't particularly relevant to the arguments being made, but that's actually not how disintegrate works. Remember, from critical hits:
If you critically succeed at a Strike, your attack deals double damage. Other attacks, such as spell attack rolls and some uses of the Athletics skill, describe the specific effects that occur when their outcomes are critical successes.
So no, the damage can't be doubled directly from the attack roll being a crit. The only things the attack roll are for are:
1. Seeing if the attack hits.2. Reducing the target's save by one step on a crit.
All that being said, your main point that disintegrate is the odd thing in this scenario and not critical immunity is still accurate imo, as it often doubles damage on a crit, but technically the effect isn't doubling damage and therefore bypasses crit immunity. But I don't see that as a problem. There are many cases in which you can get around an effect with a specific spell or ability.
To me, it makes perfect sense that being immune to critical hits doesn't save you from the extra effects of spells.
Critical hit immunity is usually because you have no physical weak points; that doesn't have anything to do about resisting a water jet that is pushing you back.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think that critical hit immunity is only "suspect wording" in the sense that it does not quite do what the word combination would immediately make you think it does, but that it is not really ambiguous language at all, just easily missed language. Perhaps repeating it in the critical hit definition would have been useful, but really, people should be sure to read the traits of creatures and the glossary definitions of terms like immunity when they first come to one that is different than expected.