I remember something along the lines of druids being able to qualify for feats that they would qualify for if they were in wild shape. Allowing them to take improved natural attack for example.
Does this mean they could qualify for the feat final embrace?
If the answer is no, can you recommend the best route to build a PC that has access to this feat in wild shape?
If the answer is yes, please post so I know.
This Final Embrace?
You can take feats that you only qualify for when wild shaped (by the simple expedient of being wildh shaped when you level up), but AFAIK there is no way to wild shape in Dhampir so I am not sure how it could help with that particular feat.
_
glass.
Well, no. I did say the feat Final Embrace, not the unrelated trait for dhampir.
Linked it this time to avoid further confusion. Thanks for responding though!
A Treesinger Archetype can wildshape in plants with the required constrict ability.
Polymorph doesn't change type, so you'd never be considered a serpentfolk or a naga for the feat. Also, if you did manage to qualify, it would only work when you met the pre-requisites (aka used a form that qualified for the feat).
If you polymorphed into a "creature that has the constrict special attack as a racial ability" such as a constrictor snake, would that do it?
What about if constrict was gained through racial heritage ogre + ogre crush? Does a racial feat that grants the ability to constrict count as the racial ability?
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Polymorph doesn't change type, so you'd never be considered a serpentfolk or a naga for the feat. Also, if you did manage to qualify, it would only work when you met the pre-requisites (aka used a form that qualified for the feat).If you polymorphed into a "creature that has the constrict special attack as a racial ability" such as a constrictor snake, would that do it?
What about if constrict was gained through racial heritage ogre + ogre crush? Does a racial feat that grants the ability to constrict count as the racial ability?
No. You get the ability, but it isn't a racial ability for the druid. Your race doesn't change, nor your type, when you are wildshaped.
@glass: what form you have when you gain a level doesn't matter. Either you can get a form that has constrict or you can't. If you can get a form with constrict you can get feats that have it as a prerequisite (but not if they require it as a racial ability). If the feats are in a Bestiary you need the GM permission.
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Just to point it out, Final Embrace has some questionable text:
Final Embrace (Combat)
Source Ultimate Combat pg. 101
Your coils are particularly deadly, allowing you to constrict opponents of your size or smaller.Prerequisites: Str 13, Int 3; naga, serpentfolk, or creature that has the constrict special attack as a racial ability; base attack bonus +3.
Benefit: You gain the constrict and grab special attacks. Your constrict attack deals damage equal to your unarmed strike or primary natural weapon melee attack. Further, you can grab and constrict opponents up to your size.
Normal: You can grab and constrict creatures one size smaller than you.
Constrict has no limit on the size of the creatures you can constrict.
Grab in Bestiary 1 was limited to creatures smaller than you, but that was changed in later Bestiaries to creatures of your size or smaller.
And with the racial heritage ogre + ogre crush feat example? Does a racial feat that grants the ability to constrict not count as a racial ability to constrict?
I suppose I could awaken a constrict animal and give it class levels from there. Taking leadership for it?
I suppose I could awaken a constrict animal and give it class levels from there. Taking leadership for it?
awaken and it's an npc. not a lot of gm would let you control one.even with leadership (IF they even let you pick that landmine of a feat).
just get an animal companion that get constrict then get it's int up to 3 (with the normal level advancement it get +1 to any ability score at levels 4,9,14 and 20) so it can pick any feat it's body is capable of performing (also it learn one language to understand, making controlling it a lot easier!) and go with this feat tree.
my go to would be one with more then one nat attack so it can constrict more then once in a round = final embrace horror get to hit twice and make the target frightened with no save. (remember fear stages stack, unless specifically said not to - like in demoralize, so 2 shaken = frightened).
this can easily lead to a fear-lockdown > one sided death. if it doesn't let go of the 2nd grapple (hit+grab+constrict then free action let go then hit+grab+constrict again but not let go until it's turn)
since getting out of grapple usually call for a grapple check or escape artist, and grapple is an attack (all maneuvers are attacks) something frightened creatures are not allowed to do it can only try to use escape artist, not a lot of creatures out there have that at a high skill level.
of course if you abuse that too much suddenly everything you meet has freedom of movement...
And with the racial heritage ogre + ogre crush feat example? Does a racial feat that grants the ability to constrict not count as a racial ability to constrict?
It does. Just because something is a feat, an extraordinary ability, or a spell, doesn't mean it is only such a thing: A Drow's Faerie Fire is a spell-like ability and a racial ability at the same time.
Diego's comments on rules are based on his ideology to forbid everything and keep players down, instead of basing his comments on actual rules.
Though I admit, the only rules text for what constitutes "a racial ability" is masterfully hidden in the description of the Racial Item Mastery feat (without the "spell-like"):
A racial ability is any ability that you have gained from a racial trait, from a feat or trait that lists your race as a prerequisite, or from a class option or archetype that is available only to members of your race.
That is why the Racial Heritage feat even exists, as a feat tax on race requirements.
However, keep in mind what glass said:
You need to meet the prerequisites at two times. When you select the feat, and whenever you want to use the feat.
So when you go with the plant wildshape route, you can only use the Final Embrace feat while being wildshaped into a creature with the Constrict ability.
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Though I admit, the only rules text for what constitutes "a racial ability" is masterfully hidden in the description of the Racial Item Mastery feat (without the "spell-like"):A racial SPELL-LIKE ability is any SPELL-LIKE ability that you have gained from a racial trait, from a feat or trait that lists your race as a prerequisite, or from a class option or archetype that is available only to members of your race.That is why the Racial Heritage feat even exists, as a feat tax on race requirements.
How to read the rules: take a piece of text, remove the part that limits it, and apply it to something different.
Suspending disbelief on whether the spell-like text extends to all abilities for a moment: I'd like to point out that the prerequisite text is "naga, serpentfolk, or creature that has the constrict special attack as a racial ability" not actually having the constrict ability itself. Given that your creature type doesn't actually change when you wild shape, by strict RAW you'd keep the feat in any wild shape form regardless of the form having constrict as you'd still technically be a "creature that has the constrict special attack as a racial ability", even if you can't use it at that moment. That would be the strict reading of RAW though, and you'd first have to qualify as being such a creature.
It's worth pointing out for any GMs with monstrous druid NPC's, and could make for some unique encounters.
only i believe polymorph prevent you from using stuff from your race once you change, like dark vision and other such things. i think racial attacks like constrict would also fall under that (im no polymorph expert so don't quote me on this)
only i believe polymorph prevent you from using stuff from your race once you change, like dark vision and other such things. i think racial attacks like constrict would also fall under that (im no polymorph expert so don't quote me on this)
No you are completely right but what I'm saying is the prerequisite text is not the constrict racial ability itself, it's to be a creature type that would have it, or a Naga, or a serpentfolk.
It's entirely due to the wording of the prerequisite text and, as I say, likely only useful for GMs as they seem to be the only ones with characters that could qualify. It's an interesting quirk of the RAW reading.
I'm going off on a tangent and distracting from my own thread though, so back to it: Does Theaitetos's quoted text hold up and extend to ogre crush for an ogre PC or not?
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Suspending disbelief on whether the spell-like text extends to all abilities for a moment: I'd like to point out that the prerequisite text is "naga, serpentfolk, or creature that has the constrict special attack as a racial ability" not actually having the constrict ability itself. Given that your creature type doesn't actually change when you wild shape, by strict RAW you'd keep the feat in any wild shape form regardless of the form having constrict as you'd still technically be a "creature that has the constrict special attack as a racial ability", even if you can't use it at that moment. That would be the strict reading of RAW though, and you'd first have to qualify as being such a creature.
It's worth pointing out for any GMs with monstrous druid NPC's, and could make for some unique encounters.
Yes, if you get constrict as a racial ability, your race doesn't change when you wildshape, so you have the prerequisite.
So keeping discussion on track,
racial spell-like ability is any spell-like ability that you have gained from a racial trait, from a feat or trait that lists your race as a prerequisite, or from a class option or archetype that is available only to members of your race.
Is the text from Racial Item Mastery the best we've got so far as to whether ogre crush's constrict ability counts as a racial ability? I'm not sure if that's enough to work with and convince most GMs. Can we get a consensus on if this would/should work?
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You are really unable to stop repeating that. Courting a ban?
That aside, racial spell-like abilities are a subset of racial abilities. Getting a subset of something doesn't give what is in the main class.
It is like saying that getting access to the enchantment school of wizard spells gives access to all wizard spells.
You are really unable to stop repeating that. Courting a ban?
That aside, racial spell-like abilities are a subset of racial abilities. Getting a subset of something doesn't give what is in the main class.
It is like saying that getting access to the enchantment school of wizard spells gives access to all wizard spells.
I think it's closer to finding a rule that says "enchantment wizard spells are spells on the wizard spell list" and therefore assuming that the phrase "wizard spells are spells on the wizard spell list" is also true, if potentially significantly less cut and dry.
But that's my interpretation and you're right to generally lean toward more cautious interpretations by default. I'm not as confident as Theaitetos though, and I think they may have been a little too needlessly obnoxious in assessing your view of the rules.
I think it's closer to finding a rule that says "enchantment wizard spells are spells on the wizard spell list" and therefore assuming that the phrase "wizard spells are spells on the wizard spell list" is also true, if potentially significantly less cut and dry.
Yes. The superset can be more encompassing than the subset, but it cannot exclude things from its subset.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subset
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic
Diego claims that there are racial spell-like abilities, that are not racial abilities. And that is just super weird.
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I think it's closer to finding a rule that says "enchantment wizard spells are spells on the wizard spell list" and therefore assuming that the phrase "wizard spells are spells on the wizard spell list" is also true, if potentially significantly less cut and dry.Yes. The superset can be more encompassing than the subset, but it cannot exclude things from its subset.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subset
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LogicDiego claims that there are racial spell-like abilities, that are not racial abilities. And that is just super weird.
Where you have got the idea I am saying that?
I am simply saying that the text you cite, in its integrity, defines only what is a racial spell-like ability. Nothing allows you to expand that definition into defining what are racial abilities in other fields.
You are using the same kind of logic people tried to use to argue that Racial heritage: Kobold plus Tail terror gave a tail attack to a human.