To roll, or not to roll?

[Snipper]

There are some feats, that triggers when you roll a success, like Magical trickster or The harder they fall.
And there are some ways to get success on this tasks witout rolling, like Improved knockdown , which gives you auto-crit-success on trip, or Eldritch archer, which gives you auto-success on spell attack roll
So, my question is: will auto-success from feats triggers other feats, or you need fairly roll dice?

[Elicoor]

There's no absolute interpretation. Making it another game point to discuss with your DM, without forgetting that if it feels too good as an option, it probably isn't intended.

However, you have to distinguish two cases.
Some interactions call for a roll, some don't.

- In the case of Improved Knockdown + The harder they fall, the second only calls for a successful/critical success. No reference to rolls. Same for Magical Trickster that only needs for the attack to be a success, however you got that success.

- But it's not always the case: for example, when you consider feats like Assurance, the text tells "You can forgo rolling a skill check for that skill to instead receive a result of...". In such a case, some feats that call for a rolled success/critical success might not be able to trigger, as you purposely decided not to roll.
For example, Assurance (Crafting) + Impeccable Crafter: the first one makes you forgo your roll, the second says that when you roll a success, you get a critical success instead. As you didn't roll, you shouldn't be able to get the increase to critical success. That point is still debated once in a while, and in the meantime: ask your DM.

[thenobledrake]

The rules are written in casual language, which means they are imprecise, but also aren't meant to have to be precise - so when the rules say "when you roll" they are using that language not because you actually have to specifically roll, but because generally, you are rolling.

When you have a specific option that says to pick a specific result, rather than roll, it's meant to be compatible and functional, not a super-hard to apply thing you have to carefully parse the exact wording of each rule rather than just understand their meaning to know when you can apply.

[breithauptclan]

thenobledrake wrote:

When you have a specific option that says to pick a specific result, rather than roll, it's meant to be compatible and functional

That is my thinking too. If a stock character would have to roll, then the ability triggers. Even if you specifically didn't have to roll because of a different feat like Assurance that says that you don't actually roll.

However, if some feat or spell just gives you an effect without requiring a roll, then it wouldn't trigger. So casting Spider Climb and getting a climb speed means that you can climb a wall without making climb checks at all. So a feat that doubles your climb distance on a successful climb check wouldn't apply because a standard character with a climb speed is not making climb checks.

Doubling your climb speed from Spider Climb because of a feat interaction with climb checks is overpowered. Doubling your climb speed from a climb check result because of a stated feat ability is intended even if you don't actually roll the climb check.

[graystone]

breithauptclan wrote:

thenobledrake wrote:

When you have a specific option that says to pick a specific result, rather than roll, it's meant to be compatible and functional

That is my thinking too. If a stock character would have to roll, then the ability triggers. Even if you specifically didn't have to roll because of a different feat like Assurance that says that you don't actually roll.

However, if some feat or spell just gives you an effect without requiring a roll, then it wouldn't trigger. So casting Spider Climb and getting a climb speed means that you can climb a wall without making climb checks at all. So a feat that doubles your climb distance on a successful climb check wouldn't apply because a standard character with a climb speed is not making climb checks.

Doubling your climb speed from Spider Climb because of a feat interaction with climb checks is overpowered. Doubling your climb speed from a climb check result because of a stated feat ability is intended even if you don't actually roll the climb check.

This isn't right: you do have to make climb rolls with climb speed in several cases: even when you don't, it still gives you a success, "Instead of needing to attempt Athletics checks to Climb, you automatically succeed", so I don't see how it's functionally different than assurance.

[breithauptclan]

It may be that my example is bad. I still hold to the paradigm of allowing compatibility between effects that happen on a successful roll and feats that replace a roll with a fixed value.