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Note: I would normally post this in the AP specific forum instead of AP general discussion, but I don't see an Abomination Vault Forum so if this can be moved there when that happens, I would greatly appreciate it.
First of all, RAVE!
James Jacobs has some beautiful adventure designs in this book and the flavor and color of the world and the creatures is all amazing. I can't wait to run this. I especially love the presentation of a mega dungeon as fitting within the larger world of Golarion, but being left incredibly open ended for me as a GM to get my PCs in the door. I feel like this really encourages me to take ownership of my campaign and make it something special. The book really focuses fast and furiously on the dungeon environs itself and spends the vast majority of its time making a lively and dynamic dungeon ecology. As a classic dungeon crawl, this book has creativity in all the right places.
For example: I can't wait to play up the gang turf war of the mitflits and the morlocks. I think I am going to really try to push my PCs away from going full on Murder Hobo, by having Mitflits break down and spend a full round crying and mourning the first time a party member brings one down with lethal force, to encourage more social interactions with obviously intelligent enemies. I think I am also going to discribe the mudlickers as all having dirty faces that look like they have been face planting in the muck of the Fogfen, and for their graffiti to be a series of brownish vertical streaks on the wall, from where they drag their mud covered...tongues along the wall.
But all of that is just riffing off of the beautiful flavor that is already present in the book. What I am very interested in doing, is playing this whole AP on slow XP progression, so that there is also room to introduce a lot more social encounters with NPCs from Otari and allow for a lot of downtime interaction with the town to unlock some of the bonuses in the Gazetteer.
I absolutely LOVE the way that the Gazetteer for this book was handled and hope to see its form cary over into future APs as well. It really presents all the information I need to integrate the more fun subsystems from the GMG and I can't wait to see how the PCs run with it.
Overall, I just wanted to say that I was really surprised at how effectively this AP shows off why PF2 is designed the way it is, even for running an adventure that would seem to otherwise be so traditional that it might feel system agnostic otherwise.
Really incredible design here, and I can't wait to run it.
Also, question: James! How did you find the time to put this together (and nail it) between the 100000000 other projects you seem to be involved with at this time?
Sounds absolutely awesome! Can't wait!
I am counting the dasy until the 27th. This will be the first full AP I am going to GM for a group that has only run a mini campaign, Pathfinder Society Scenarios and other One-Shots.
I have devoured the Player's Guide, is there anything else you would recommend so I could pre-prep it in anticipation? :D
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Before you get the book? It is a little tricky, but I recommend making an organizational document for yourself for tracking PC and NPC relationships. You can have a sense of who's who's who in Otari from the players guide, but there is a whole lot to flesh in from the Gazetteer once you get it.
Also, pay attention when you get the book to how different exploration activities are called out in the rooms, and how you will encourage your PCs to try to do more than just sneak through and kill everything as quickly as possible.
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Thanks a ton, happy to further discuss the adventure after the 27th!
Creative Director
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Also, question: James! How did you find the time to put this together (and nail it) between the 100000000 other projects you seem to be involved with at this time?
Yay; thanks for the kind words! Love seeing how folks take adventures and make them their own and get inspired by them.
As for where I found the time to write this, I just made time to do it. It helped that we started work on this Adventure Path several months earlier than normal. I had to design Otari several months before the rest, because the full gazetteer of the town (as you see in this volume) was also meant to serve as a starting point for the content of the Beginner Box, even though the gazetteer itself would be the last thing to appear chronologically after that product and Troubles in Otari. Next up I designed the maps for all ten levels of the dungeon and made sure to get as much of my adventure done before the other two authors as possible so they'd have more material to work with.
The actual work on the dungeon, the town, and the maps was all freelance; it wasn't done "on the clock" during the time I was working on Bestiary 2's development and other stuff. Freelance writing is very much a second-job thing for me, so I find the time in the same way anyone who has two jobs finds time for their second job... by managing and following schedules and making sure that I devote time to the work of writing as needed for the project. This was a big one, though, for sure. I think this MIGHT be the first time an Adventure Path volume has had a single author.
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I finally have it. This is a wonderful piece of art! Absolutely love it! Amazing job.
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From reading another thread, I was reminded that I really, really want to draw potential GMs attention to the back matter of this AP and how useful it is to familiarize yourself with the options and think about how you will introduce your PCs to some of them.
Honestly, I would probably recommend most newer PF2 GMs pick up this AP as a starting place because it really makes it clear how to integrate things like down time and story rewards into the campaign.
Make sure you sell the spooky ghost-ness of the AP enough to help your PCs be pointed in the right direction so that at least one of them realizes that getting the ghost hunter archetype, and picking skills and feats to deal with the incorporeal and haunts ins going to be a real life saver in this campaign.
Just bought it. I was very interested by the maps, the way they interact with each other and the dungeon feeling they give. And I'm honestly very happy. I haven't even read the first part that I've already told my players I'll launch it ASAP. There is so much content in there that can be used for excellent dungeon delving.
I'll certainly come back later to make a thorough review.
I'm so excited to start this AP with my group, most likely next week.
First: to plan out my playlists. With the major focus on the dungeon, with plenty of combat, I don't want the music growing stale early on.
Honestly, I would probably recommend most newer PF2 GMs pick up this AP as a starting place because it really makes it clear how to integrate things like down time and story rewards into the campaign.
I am interested in when you would give the PCs some downtime? Especially when Chapter 2 begins it seems it would give the PCs a ton of agency to not dillydaddle around but to delve deeper to stop further attacks.
It's one of the things I am curious about, as I want the PCs to spend time in Otari and meet the NPCs, but I am unsure how much time they will actually spend. Any ideas how to manage that if the PCs are mainly spending time in the dungeons?
Also I am curious about how other GMs are going to run the beginning of Chapter 2! Depending on the wounded state I forsee potential player death
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Creative Director
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Downtime should be an organic development, I feel, that the GM should encourage players to take as it makes sense. There's not a countdown for when to finish the adventure, although the start of Chapter 2 implies that. If you think your PCs are too concerned about a countdown, then you can either have them attempt skill checks while examining or studying the light and tell them (regardless of the result, since they don't know the "DC" you're setting is equal to whatever they roll) that the magic of the light seems to have expended itself and is only slowly recharging.
You can also simply tell the players "Take your time; this adventure's not on a timer." It's meta, but sometimes that's a good thing to do.
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Downtime should be an organic development, I feel, that the GM should encourage players to take as it makes sense. There's not a countdown for when to finish the adventure, although the start of Chapter 2 implies that. If you think your PCs are too concerned about a countdown, then you can either have them attempt skill checks while examining or studying the light and tell them (regardless of the result, since they don't know the "DC" you're setting is equal to whatever they roll) that the magic of the light seems to have expended itself and is only slowly recharging.
You can also simply tell the players "Take your time; this adventure's not on a timer." It's meta, but sometimes that's a good thing to do.
Thank you so much for replying and the tip! I think it is so cool, that the author of the adventure is in the comments giving advice :)
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If you ever get a chance to watch a live stream of James Jacobs talking about the world of Golarion or an adventure or location he wrote, it is awesome seeing his passion for what he does.
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Honestly, I would probably recommend most newer PF2 GMs pick up this AP as a starting place because it really makes it clear how to integrate things like down time and story rewards into the campaign.I am interested in when you would give the PCs some downtime? Especially when Chapter 2 begins it seems it would give the PCs a ton of agency to not dillydaddle around but to delve deeper to stop further attacks.
I'll cheat (I always cheat). I want to give a Roguelike feel to the Abomination Vaults exploration. So, what I'll do is that I'll "close" the Gauntlight when the light's not on (closing the secret passage on first floor because of reas... magic and all other accesses). So the party can't stay inside the dungeon (unless they want to be stuck in it) and will have to perform quick expeditions. And when the Gauntlight is closed, the characters have no other choice than to commit to downtime activities.
I also find that it's more logical that way, as there have been countless adventurers/looters inside the gauntlight during the past centuries, it would be a bit strange that noone ever found the secret passage.
And it will allow me to play the dungeon ecology, repopulating some areas if I see fit. So the players won't be able to consider that room B15 is empty because they cleared it. It will allow me to keep tension through wandering monsters and such if I feel that my players are playing it a bit too relaxed.
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I too am going to “cheat.” I am going to make it so that sleeping near the gaunt light is disquieting and prevents a good nights rest. Then I am going to use a house rule that I use frequently that breaks days up into 3 cycles of 8 hours. Trying to adventure for 2 or more cycles causes exhaustion. Most day’s I’ll expect the party to either do one cycle of adventuring, one of resting and one of down time. Occasionally 2 downtime cycles, especially when someone is trying to recover from something nasty. I want my players leaving the ruins to return to Otari pretty much every day to really have cause to get to know the people of the town and to not set the adventure back weeks at a time when PCs want to make, crafting/buying and using consumables a part of their tactics.
In return, certain aspects of the dungeon are going to be dynamic and very responsive to invasion and ecology changes. Returning to the dungeon will have a new feel to it depending upon what the party does. I’ll have 6 players playing on slow XP, so there will be a lot of room for extra monsters and for interacting with npcs in the dungeon and in Otari for picking up side quests.
Ah, yes! Good ideas! I like that sleeping near Gauntlight prevents a good nights rest. Maybe they get the bonuses from a full nights rest but still get the fatigued condition.
I have a question about the artifact "The Whispering Reeds" (p.79).
Can a character use an ability once without getting exposed to Empty Death and then is exposed every time after using it additionally in the same 24h? Or is it once when activating and then every use after that as well?
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I’ll have 6 players playing on slow XP, so there will be a lot of room for extra monsters and for interacting with npcs in the dungeon and in Otari for picking up side quests.
I've sent an email to all my PFS group. I received more than 15 positive answers!
So, I think I'll play it a la PFS. I'll give side quests to different groups and the dungeon will become the location of all these adventures. Lots of work for me, but if I manage to do it, it may be epic.|
Creative Director
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I have a question about the artifact "The Whispering Reeds" (p.79).
Can a character use an ability once without getting exposed to Empty Death and then is exposed every time after using it additionally in the same 24h? Or is it once when activating and then every use after that as well?
If you're not a worshiper of Nhimbaloth, you are exposed to the Empth Death every time you use any of the abilities that start with "Activate" granted by the artifact. Even using an activation from this artifact once exposes you. The only way to dodge that is to be a worshiper of Nhimbaloth, which wouldn't be a good thematic choice for this adventure or party unity.
If you're not a worshiper of Nhimbaloth, you are exposed to the Empth Death every time you use any of the abilities that start with "Activate" granted by the artifact. Even using an activation from this artifact once exposes you. The only way to dodge that is to be a worshiper of Nhimbaloth, which wouldn't be a good thematic choice for this adventure or party unity.
Ah, okay, thank you very much for clarifying :)
Yes, being a worshiper of Nhimbaloth would make the adventure rather awkwaaaard haha
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Creative Director
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Yes, being a worshiper of Nhimbaloth would make the adventure rather awkwaaaard haha
For sure... but to be fair, the same awkwardness would exist in pretty much any adventure. Nhimbaloth is not a good choice for someone to worship in a group where no one else worships her (sort of the same for most of the Elder Mythos, with a few exceptions like Yog-Sothoth or Yig).
For sure... but to be fair, the same awkwardness would exist in pretty much any adventure. Nhimbaloth is not a good choice for someone to worship in a group where no one else worships her (sort of the same for most of the Elder Mythos, with a few exceptions like Yog-Sothoth or Yig).
Definetly! My group will have cleric of sarenrae and a monk dwarf following Torag. For the cleric I am thinking of creating a bond to Vendy first of all and maybe creating a friendly colleague NPC in the clergy that comes under attack (maybe even dies - I have another Idea of how the school children were on a "school day trip" tour in the Library when the attack hits) when Chamber 2 starts and all the undead rain down on the Dawnflower Library.
I have another clarification question: What does Volluk's Discorporate characteristic do? Does that mean if he turns into swarm form he just can be stomped out? I don't get what the "dispatch the fleeing vermin" is referring to.
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Creative Director
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I have another clarification question: What does Volluk's Discorporate characteristic do? Does that mean if he turns into swarm form he just can be stomped out? I don't get what the "dispatch the fleeing vermin" is referring to.
That ability is fully detailed in the worm that walks entry in Bestiary 2, but the basic idea is that when he falls apart at 0 hit points, the PCs need to blast and scour the area for all the worms to ensure he can't come back. Bestiary 2 notes that doing so depends on the circumstances and location of the fight, but that something like applying area effect or splash damage to the area where he discorporated does most of the work, after which a PC must make a series of flat checks to ensure that the worms are all slain.
Check pages 296–297 of Bestiary 2 for the full rules.
I have another clarification question: What does Volluk's Discorporate characteristic do? Does that mean if he turns into swarm form he just can be stomped out? I don't get what the "dispatch the fleeing vermin" is referring to.That ability is fully detailed in the worm that walks entry in Bestiary 2, but the basic idea is that when he falls apart at 0 hit points, the PCs need to blast and scour the area for all the worms to ensure he can't come back. Bestiary 2 notes that doing so depends on the circumstances and location of the fight, but that something like applying area effect or splash damage to the area where he discorporated does most of the work, after which a PC must make a series of flat checks to ensure that the worms are all slain.
Check pages 296–297 of Bestiary 2 for the full rules.
Thank you, I didn't know where to look.
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Creative Director
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Thank you, I didn't know where to look.I have another clarification question: What does Volluk's Discorporate characteristic do? Does that mean if he turns into swarm form he just can be stomped out? I don't get what the "dispatch the fleeing vermin" is referring to.That ability is fully detailed in the worm that walks entry in Bestiary 2, but the basic idea is that when he falls apart at 0 hit points, the PCs need to blast and scour the area for all the worms to ensure he can't come back. Bestiary 2 notes that doing so depends on the circumstances and location of the fight, but that something like applying area effect or splash damage to the area where he discorporated does most of the work, after which a PC must make a series of flat checks to ensure that the worms are all slain.
Check pages 296–297 of Bestiary 2 for the full rules.
No worries! (For monsters like this that are expanded from the baseline creature or are variants, we indicate the page reference near the top of the stat block.)
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Insert obligatory "Bestiary 6" joke here :-)
It's because you made a confusion between Bestiary 6 and Bestiary 6. [irony]It's crystal clear![/irony]
The bleed damage done by the Blood of Belcorra haunt (p.13) at the base of the lighthouse, is that bleed damage in the sense of persistent damage?
If so, would that mean, that any PC would take 1d10(w/ fail +6 or even w/ crit fail 2d10+6) bleed damage at the end of their turn as long as they couldn't get rid of the p-damage? I got my partys character sheets today and I am concerned for their well-being haha
Sources of Bleed Damage usually state that it's Persistent, and the info on Bleed Damage says it's Persistent damage, so... I think it should be Persistent.
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I confirm, it says that the victim is Sickened as long as their bleeding in case of a critical failure.
Also, it's interesting to remember that you need to be hurt to bleed, so if the character is at max hp, the bleed automatically stops.
I confirm, it says that the victim is Sickened as long as their bleeding in case of a critical failure.
Also, it's interesting to remember that you need to be hurt to bleed, so if the character is at max hp, the bleed automatically stops.
Ah, great thing to point out. Thank you, for explaining :)
Finally got a chance to read through this volume tonight! Looks really creative and fascinating. Exactly a story I'd love to play--delving deep into a twisting fortress, battling weird s%!~ while trying to solve mysteries. Maybe some day I'll have a full table of players who'd be interested in this one... high on my list for a more detailed, dangerous, mechanical campaign!
Have to add, though, that high level the APs look like they're getting harder and harder. I'm in book 5 of Age of Ashes, and while folks make a stink about the +3 fights at level 4 and 10, the truth is for both of those you have new NPC help for each fight. But the number of +3 and even +4 fights have been increasing per each released AP. I mean, this one, as a first book alone, has three or four +3s and one +4 encounter.
It looks crazy fun to me! I'm excited to start seeing some reactions from active tables look like. :)
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Finally got a chance to read through this volume tonight! Looks really creative and fascinating. Exactly a story I'd love to play--delving deep into a twisting fortress, battling weird s&+$ while trying to solve mysteries. Maybe some day I'll have a full table of players who'd be interested in this one... high on my list for a more detailed, dangerous, mechanical campaign!
Have to add, though, that high level the APs look like they're getting harder and harder. I'm in book 5 of Age of Ashes, and while folks make a stink about the +3 fights at level 4 and 10, the truth is for both of those you have new NPC help for each fight. But the number of +3 and even +4 fights have been increasing per each released AP. I mean, this one, as a first book alone, has three or four +3s and one +4 encounter.
It looks crazy fun to me! I'm excited to start seeing some reactions from active tables look like. :)
I have begun my running of it in a Play by post format. The party spent a good amount of time in the town of Otari, getting to know each other and the locals, and then having their stars read. Now they have just entered the gatehouse and are having a blast trying to figure out these creatures trying to get them to eat pixie mud.
DEFINITELY push your PCs to have at least one character with undercommon right off the bat. They will miss out on so much fun if they don't.
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My "party" is close to finish the first part of the Gauntlight after nearly 20 sessions.
First of all, kudos to the work, as so far the Gauntlight met my expectations. It's big, it's complex, it's the stepping stone I needed to run my campaign.
What I really valued in the 300 pages of material:
- The maps. First and foremost. I needed a spider web of hallways and rooms for my players to explore. This is something I can't do on my own. Also, the map quality is paramount as I play on Roll20.
- Stories and backstories. Fleshwarping, devilish contracts, Nhimbaloth, drows, ghoul librarians, all these are making each level unique. And they bring a lot of ideas to work on to create more enemies and more stories. There is so much I can add to the Gauntlight without having to make it up completely.
- The end. I love the death of Belcorra. I love the fact that Nhimbaloth is actually an ally and my players will clearly know about that. Will they be the apex predators?
As a side note, I run this campaign in a very specific way and that's why I needed a real megadungeon: I have 16 players and characters. They all work together to grind the megadungeon, creating different parties of 6 at every session (a bit like in PFS). Sessions are made on Roll20 and are strictly focused on the Gauntlight and the mega dungeon. Out of dungeon roleplay and stories are handled outside sessions by mail or through Discord.
So far, it's been an enormous work. I was a bit crazy to start it in the first place, but the result is already memorable (and I hope I'll maintain this level of concentration, player involvement and fun until the end). The dynamics of having 16 players and no fix parties really change the way of exploring a dungeon, in my opinion for the best. It addresses some of the flaws of long dungeon exploration: repetitiveness essentially but it also greatly enhances stories inside the dungeon and allows very diverse player involvements. I will certainly make a few posts about the way I handled the campaign if some people are interested as it is really a different experience in my opinion.
So, 5 stars from me. Long live the Abomination Vaults!
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That is great to hear Superbidi! I agree that one of the great strengths of this AP is that it exists outside of needing to make the characters intrinsically central to the dungeon environment or the story itself.
A GM can add that stuff really easily, because all the backstory stuff is rich and plentiful, but you just don't need X players to make X choices beyond, "want to explore this mega dungeon."
Not that there is anything wrong with more character driven APs, but they can be difficult to get players to jump into, unless the whole table is excited about having characters that will do that one thing. Then there is problem (not really a problem, but more like a certain kind of reality) where PCs who have these deep binding backstory connections to something that is going to happen in the 4th book of an AP have to live that long for any of that material to matter at all. PF2 takes the kiddy gloves off, and just assuming that you are going to start with 4 characters and end with those same characters in nearly an impossible feat in an AP.
Being only 3 books really helps mitigate that kind of disappointment, but also the nature of a mega dungeon makes it a lot easier to see how characters might come and go, with their own specific goals, and it is not disruptive to the tables game experience.
I very much look forward to the strength of thousands AP, but it is going to be one that probably takes a lot more consistent commitment from players to get through and feel like everyone is having one unified story telling experience. I know a lot of folks have had that trouble with Age of Ashes and Extinction Curse.
And then there is the added boon of letting the GM really get to know the setting of Otari, where the players will be spending the vast majority of their down time, and thus the GM can spend some time developing those NPCs without having to put them on the back burner for months to a year while the players are a continent away.
Overall, This AP really needs to be pushed by the community as an absolutely great place for newer GMs to sharpen their teeth and learn the ins and outs of GMing. It is so well built for it.
My play by post table of this game has just made it down stairs and it is phenomenally interesting how much more into the elaborate web of personalities my party is than I expected them to be. This is my first play by post campaign in PF2, but it has been immensely fun being able to take the time with different posts.
I have quite a few different languages in the party and they have had a blast negotiating with the Mudlickers (I had my mudlickers act a little more on the comical side, and made them have to make command animal checks on the maggots to control them. I have 6 players so I had 2 maggots and 6 mudlickers, but one of the controllers rolled a nat 1 on her first control attempt and the maggot KO'd her with one bite. My party immediately rushed in to rescue the mudlicker from the bowels of the maggot, and earned her, and her companion maggot trainer's respect. Boss Skrawng was unhappy that the party killed one of his maggots, but they had won over the gate guardians pretending to eat the "pixie dust" and saving a trainer with magic, so he has been fearing a revolt if he comes across too hostilely. All the while he continues to plan his invasion in his throne room that the party has not entered yet. I have decided that Skrawng will attack when he gets 4 flies trained, and that training the maggots is completely useless except that it keeps them busy until they turn to flies and then I roll to see if the trainers can train the flies every week. On a crit fail, the fly escapes, on a crit success the fly is trained immediately, and on a success the fly takes one more week.
The party has started heading below through the lens house and so is pretty far off from trying to do anything with the morlocks for now. They really got into the lab below and had the gem from Mr. Beak, so they got Borbo Talking right away. I have played up Borbo's unhinged-ness and a great way to do that PbP is that I have 3 separate personalities for him, one that speaks in a foul elven, one that speaks in a sad Goblin tongue, and a the least communicative but most direct voice that speaks plainly in common. They have had a lot of fun sharing the completely different tidbits of information the goblin speaking borbo and the angry elven speaking borbo has shared, as one party member speaks elven and a different party member speaks goblin. Right now the party is a little confused, in a great way, in that they assume that the vain Volluk is full of unrequited love for Belcorra (misreading the note in his former room as being addressed to her) but that he might have been a bit of a player, leading Borbo on to elicit such initial devotion which has given way to rage.
The slower game cycle of the play by post is really letting the whole party play up the soap opera elements of the story and it is just an absolute blast to GM. Even if you have other GMing duties, I recommend considering running this one on the side as a play by post game because it really lets you get into the deep end of the delightful NPCs.
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So, 5 stars from me. Long live the Abomination Vaults!Psst, SuperBidi, we absolutely have a place you can give your five stars to these products...
You should link to that place in this thread Ron so others that are having fun with it and sharing their stories here might be inspired to overcome the laziness of trying to find the product page for them...Or I guess I can overcome my own laziness and do it myself:
Review the first book here