Wizard with witch archtype. Which spell list / patron?


Advice

Radiant Oath

I'm building a spellblending wizard with the witch archtype. I'm trying to decide some things. I want to have a diversity of spells, so I'm looking at taking a patron with the occult, divine or primal spell list. Which is best? I certainly want some magical healing-is Soothe sufficient? Is occult still best even if my DCs and attacks are low? Should I be doubling up on the power of the arcane list instead?

Also, I was looking at playing an ancient elf or a sprite. As an ancient elf, I could take Enhanced Familiar at 2nd level. Is that a big power boost, or should I just forget about my familiar and focus on spells? Is there a better second level feat?


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I'd probably go divine. Simply because it has the least overlap with the arcane spell list.


As Blave said, since you want diversity, Divine covers the opposite side of the 4 traditions so suits best.

Soothe is sufficient. Heal works better though, with its lead growing the larger your party is (and whether it's an undead-themed campaign). If Soothe proves insufficient, that's likely not your mistake, but rather tactical errors (or players not understanding how squishy their heroes are in PF2).
That said, at most you should be the emergency healer if your healing comes via MCD slots! Note that that might be enough with good tactics and Medicine.

Occult's strength is tied to its unique debuffs which yes, depend on DCs. MCD casting (unless it aligns with proficiency gained elsewhere) is not a good place to bank one's offense (or one's build for that matter). On the flip side, I wouldn't stress too much over the MCD since it'll be many levels before those slots make an impact.

Enhanced Familiar is not a big power boost.
I'm wary of familiars because I find them fragile, so the answer depends on whether you're playing PFS (easy mode) or APs/modules (hard mode) to whether you want to invest much in them. Homebrew's your call.

The thing about Ancient Elf is there are many heritages that are better than a 2nd level feat, and that's ultimately what the tradeoff is (though it's nice to have those extra Cantrips at 1st).
Reach Spell (which an Elf can only take at 2nd) feels mandatory IMO so you don't have to move within 30' (one action!) of opponents.

Take this with a grain of salt since if Sprites are allowed in your game, it may be too different than mine!


Yeah ancient elf is often worse than just taking human with natural ambition, and you can even get access to all the elf feats as a half elf human.
when you absolutely want a specific 2nd lvl feat or need an ability from the MCD at lvl 1 ancient elf is pretty great (like champion dedication for heavy armor)

On topic: it's rare and occult spell list but I'm very partial to the baba yaga patron for allowing inanimate familiars.
A wizard with a talking hat is just something else.


Schreckstoff wrote:

On topic: it's rare and occult spell list but I'm very partial to the baba yaga patron for allowing inanimate familiars.

A wizard with a talking hat is just something else.

Unfortunately, I don't think this works since the Witch Dedication specifies: "You cast spells like a witch. Choose a patron; you gain a familiar with two common cantrips of your choice from your chosen patron’s tradition, but aside from the tradition, you don’t gain any other effects the patron would usually grant..."

Since Baba Yaga only allows inanimate familiars as an additional effect, only primary class Witches would benefit while a multiclass Witch would treat Baba Yaga/Curse/Fate/Night Patrons as mechanically identical. Which is kinda a shame, since I'd argue that multiclass Witches should have some differences from their chosen patron beyond just tradition + tradition's skill (like a multiclass cleric with different deities), and that inanimate familiars should be a more accessible option rather than locked behind a rare patron. Because a Wizard MC Witch with a talking hat does sound cool.


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That is a bummer. I do dislike that MCD of caster classes are all pretty much identical with offering 2 cantrips and only the downsides of anathemas.

Lantern Lodge

AceofMoxen wrote:
Should I be doubling up on the power of the arcane list instead?

This was my choice. Remember, spellcasting is by tradition, not class. So a Wizard multiclass Arcane Witch gets to use its FULL arcane spellcasting for all Arcane spells - Wizard and Witch. Also, since they have the same casting stat, your spell attack and DCs are going to be identical.

If you multi-class divine, then you use divine spellcasting, which will be worse than your arcane spellcasting.

Wizard Arcane Spellcasting
Trained at 1
Expert at 7
Master at 15
Legendary at 19

Divine Witch multiclass Spellcasting
Trained at 2 (presuming you get the dedication feat at level 2)
Expert at 12
Master at 18
NO Legendary

Luckily, since wizard and witch both use INT as the spellcasting stat, at least you won't lag on that.

This is not to say that diversification is bad, it's just a choice. Either double down on the Arcane, or diversify Arcane/Divine. Both have their uses.


I am with Castilliano on magic healing. Even going with divine spell tradition you are going to be a 2nd or 3rd string in-combat healer. Soothe would probably be sufficient for that.

And in fact (and the entire reason I am chiming in on this) Life Boost would probably be at least as good as MCD spell slot spells for in-combat healing - and much better for out of combat healing. Focus point based healing is a close second best for out of combat healing. (best being medicine skill and associated feats). The earliest you could get it would be level 4 though.

I also agree that enhanced familiar is not overly powerful.

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