So I wanted to have something like Goku, where he starts off in base form, turns Super Saiyan 1, then later goes Super Saiyan 2, and even later, Super Saiyan 3, except it would be with Barbarian Rage, and an enemy to the PCs, rather than the protagonist. Another way of looking at it is the trope “This isn’t even my final form!”
So the idea is this: he starts off not Raging. At 3/4 max hp (rounded down) he Rages. At 1/2 max hp, he Greater Rages. And at 1/4 max hp, he Mighty Rages.
He will still have every other class feature active the whole time, including Rage Powers (and/or combinations of them) that would normally require being a minimum level where you would have Greater Rage already, despite only using regular Rage when he first starts Raging.
I plan on having him as a boss enemy to PCs that are lower level than they should be to deal with a level 20 NPC. I figured this would be an interesting change of pace, cause they will be fighting a level 20 NPC, but he isn’t a CR 19 challenge (I’d still be using NPC wealth, so the CR wouldn’t be equal to level, but one lower, if I were to play him normal that is).
What would you say his CR reduction should be for this?
Sounds like a fun concept. I think just affecting the passive bonuses of rage at each increment of HP is going to not be very "visible" to the players though. I might consider instead doing it as a lower level barbarian that gains additional abilities as they go to higher levels of Super Saiyan (damaging energy aura that visibly increases in size and intensity would be my go-to).
Of course, that advice wasn't what you were asking for. To answer your question, the transition from nothing -> rage -> greater rage -> mighty rage isn't particularly big. It's only a total shift of +4 to hit / +6 to damage. Just going off of monster statistics by CR, that's about a shift of 2 CR in terms of offenses for a high level creature. But its a 2 CR shift that gradually decreases to a 0 CR difference. Considering that this boss still gets all the other benefits of being a raging high level barbarian, including most of the defenses of being a high level creature (including presumably the arsenal of magic items), I think the effects are even less pronounced.
Taking all that into consideration, I'd call this a -1 CR modification.
I'd call it nothing.
A lvl 20 Barbarian doesn't change his CR if he is raging or not raging...
Even if you cut out the rage ability entirely, and everything connected to it, you'd still only drop the CR by 1, as it'd still be a slightly better version of the warrior npc class.
In this case, I wouldn't change the CR at all. The rage is still there, just very slightly weaker.
I read everybody’s posts, and I now have this as a revised version:
He keeps the HD, BAB, base saves, and skill ranks of a 20th level Barbarian (as well as universal things, like feats from every odd HD), but builds up class features as he builds up Rage.
For the rest of his class features, this is what I have in mind:
He starts with Fast Movement, Improved Uncanny Dodge, and Trap Sense (max). At Rage, he gains the Rage Powers and DR of a 10th level Barbarian, and Tireless Rage. At Greater Rage, he now has the Rage Powers and DR of a 15th level Barbarian, and Indomitable Will. At Mighty Rage, he has everything he is supposed to have at 20th level.
This is just a rough draft, so it is subject to change (including the possibility of an archetype, such as Invulnerable Rager or Savage Barbarian), but how does this sound?
Melkiador wrote: Even if you cut out the rage ability entirely, and everything connected to it, you'd still only drop the CR by 1, as it'd still be a slightly better version of the warrior npc class.
In this case, I wouldn't change the CR at all. The rage is still there, just very slightly weaker.
I see what you are saying, but consider this: 2 equal build rules opportunities (to the Barbarian) level 20 Warriors is supposed to be 1 CR higher than a level 20 Barbarian, but there is no way they will ever win that fight if both sides are built realistically (ie, not intentionally building one side better than the other, aside from the class levels they have, of course).
This is because NPC class levels actually get proportionally weaker to PC class levels, the higher the level they are. I mean, look at a level 20 Commoner compared to even a level 20 Warrior, and try telling me those are supposed to be the same CR. This is the reason why higher CR NPCs with NPC class levels, always supplement them with PC class levels
So yeah. You didn’t make a good comparison there.
I think the point is that no one would notice the difference of step 1 rage vs step 2 rage vs step 3 rage.
So for cinematic purposes, this doesn't do anything for the players.
For CR purposes this doesn't do much of anything.
The inability to use a class feature doesn't reduce their CR, it makes them easier sure, but doesn't affect their CR.
Reksew_Trebla wrote: Melkiador wrote: Even if you cut out the rage ability entirely, and everything connected to it, you'd still only drop the CR by 1, as it'd still be a slightly better version of the warrior npc class.
In this case, I wouldn't change the CR at all. The rage is still there, just very slightly weaker.
I see what you are saying, but consider this: 2 equal build rules opportunities (to the Barbarian) level 20 Warriors is supposed to be 1 CR higher than a level 20 Barbarian, but there is no way they will ever win that fight if both sides are built realistically (ie, not intentionally building one side better than the other, aside from the class levels they have, of course).
This is because NPC class levels actually get proportionally weaker to PC class levels, the higher the level they are. I mean, look at a level 20 Commoner compared to even a level 20 Warrior, and try telling me those are supposed to be the same CR. This is the reason why higher CR NPCs with NPC class levels, always supplement them with PC class levels
So yeah. You didn’t make a good comparison there.
I'm just making the comparison based on the rules. A level 20 Barbarian is a CR 19, or 20 if it has PC item value. A level 20 Warrior is a CR 18, or 19 if it has PC item value. Those are the rules of the game. You can argue that the entire challenge rating system is inherently flawed, but it still is what it is. If you are trying to make a slightly nerfed barbarian, then its CR shouldn't be any lower than what a Warrior is. Personally, I don't think the nerfing is even worth a single CR drop.
Melkiador wrote: Reksew_Trebla wrote: Melkiador wrote: Even if you cut out the rage ability entirely, and everything connected to it, you'd still only drop the CR by 1, as it'd still be a slightly better version of the warrior npc class.
In this case, I wouldn't change the CR at all. The rage is still there, just very slightly weaker.
I see what you are saying, but consider this: 2 equal build rules opportunities (to the Barbarian) level 20 Warriors is supposed to be 1 CR higher than a level 20 Barbarian, but there is no way they will ever win that fight if both sides are built realistically (ie, not intentionally building one side better than the other, aside from the class levels they have, of course).
This is because NPC class levels actually get proportionally weaker to PC class levels, the higher the level they are. I mean, look at a level 20 Commoner compared to even a level 20 Warrior, and try telling me those are supposed to be the same CR. This is the reason why higher CR NPCs with NPC class levels, always supplement them with PC class levels
So yeah. You didn’t make a good comparison there.
I'm just making the comparison based on the rules. A level 20 Barbarian is a CR 19, or 20 if it has PC item value. A level 20 Warrior is a CR 18, or 19 if it has PC item value. Those are the rules of the game. You can argue that the entire challenge rating system is inherently flawed, but it still is what it is. If you are trying to make a slightly nerfed barbarian, then its CR shouldn't be any lower than what a Warrior is. Personally, I don't think the nerfing is even worth a single CR drop. Incorrect. The rules themselves say there are going to be inconsistencies when advancing a monster/NPC. For instance, going strictly off of the rules, Mythic Hydras should be 1 CR lower than the CR they are listed as, but because their stats are more consistent with 1 CR higher than what the rules say they should be, the developers bumped their CR by 1.
The exact same thing is going to be true with class levels. Again, look at the Monster Creation rules, and compare a level 20 Commoner to a level 20 Warrior. Fun fact, the Monster Creation rules say the Commoner is a lower CR than the Warrior. The same thing is true with a level 20 Warrior being a lower CR than a level 19 Barbarian.
Those are the rules for creating new monsters and their CRs. This isn’t a monster. It’s a class. The rules are what they are. The GM is free to modify for anything like stats or gear. But those are the baselines. A baseline lvl 20 NPC warrior is CR18. A baseline level 20 NPC barbarian is CR19.
Melkiador wrote: Those are the rules for creating new monsters and their CRs. This isn’t a monster. It’s a class. The rules are what they are. The GM is free to modify for anything like stats or gear. But those are the baselines. A baseline lvl 20 NPC warrior is CR18. A baseline level 20 NPC barbarian is CR19. No, those are the baseline for all entities with a CR. If you are going to disagree with the rules themselves, then I’m done with this conversation.
~~~~~~~~~~
If anyone wants to be helpful, and help me out with my revised idea, I’d appreciate it.
Well, I'll say again, what I said in the first place.
The CR is no different.
A major part of the rogue class is their SA, but let's say in a fight they are never able to use their SA. This doesn't lower their CR because they didn't have SA. Not using rage doesn't lower the CR of a barbarian. Not being able to use 5 of the 25 feats a fighter has doesn't lower their CR.
Basically everyone who has commented has agreed that this is at most a -1 CR and probably not even that.
You seem to not like that opinion and want something different.
Recent threads in Homebrew and House Rules
|
