So i know this is gonna be a controversial spell to convert over but i would really like the forum's thoughts on how we could make this balanced.......so here it is, my Divine Power first draft.
Divine Power — Spell 5
Evocation
Traditions Divine
Cast Two actions - Somatic, Verbal
Target self
Duration 1 minute
Calling upon the divine power of your patron, you imbue yourself with strength and skill in combat. You gain a +1 status bonus on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls and Athletics checks. You also gain temporary Hit Points equal to your level and you are Quickened.
Heightened (7th) The status bonus increases to +2 and the temporary hit points you gain are twice your level.
Heightened (9th) The status bonus increases to +3 and the temporary hit points you gain are three times your level.
The I initial spell is fine, the heightening however is problematic, the increases are too fast, I personally would make the heightening 8th and 10th lvl.
Eh, I think the heightening is fine. Actually, it almost should follow Heroism imo, so 6th and 9th. The spell is target Self only, so can't be spammed onto the parties bruiser after all (unless they work it into their own build).
Should definitely have at least the Uncommon if not the Rare trait, though is homebrew so kinda already has that.
I've realised the Temp HP gain is a little too powerful when compared to Avatar so i brought it more in line with a weaker false life. it is now 10/15/20 Temp HP.
I think ill keep the heightening the same so it stays more inline with heroism. This spell's intention is to make the Warpriest a little bit more viable at later levels. I was thinking of knocking it down to a 4th level spell but having a self haste with benefits seemed too powerful for that level.
Here is the updated spell:
Divine Power — Spell 5
Evocation
Traditions Divine
Cast Two actions - Somatic, Verbal
Target self
Duration 1 minute
Calling upon the divine power of your patron, you imbue yourself with strength and skill in combat. You gain a +1 status bonus to attack rolls, weapon damage rolls and Athletics checks. You also gain 10 temporary Hit Points and Quickened which can use the extra action each round only for Strike actions.
Heightened (7th) The status bonus increases to +2 and the temporary hit points you gain are 15.
Heightened (9th) The status bonus increases to +3 and the temporary hit points you gain are 20.
Way too op imo.
- better than any battle form with no malus ( you can cast, speak an manipulate).
- battle forms merge your equipment ( you won't be able to use items or feats like battle medicine, not even with humanoids spells like avatar, because your equipment is merged with the new form).
- able to do all the attacks you want, while battle forms trade off also consists in using specific attacks.
- makes heroism useless ( the 10 minutes duration counts nothing, since short rest after the fight is 10 minutes long). And either saves and skill checks are not worth it's bonuses ( even leaving apart the haste part)
- quickened whithin the spell would be like casting 2 spells ( quickeness and battle form) at once, using 2 actions instead of 4, leaving apart the fact it would be better than either haste, and battle forms/heroism. Extremely broken when it comes to combat and action management.
- status checks on athletics is off compared to any battleform. Way too op.
- can be exploited by martial classes even more than they can currently exploit battle forms ( until clarifications from paizo which prevent them from using spells meant for spellcaster better than them)
It is clear how Hybrids are meant be in this 2e.
Mediocre.
And this is not a bad thing IMO ( it's balance).
They can afford to do stuff like a martial, but the have to trade stuff bring able to do so. For example,
- using the highest lvl spell slot ( flat attack bonus, and not a status one which can be useful even with a not Heightened spell and stacks with your hybrid attack).
- the possibility to cast spells ( want to be a moderate martial? You don't cast spells or use focus powers).
I think that while battleforms might be messy for what concern rules, it's clear that paizo didn't want hybrids to exploit neither combatants nor pure spellcasters, as they did in the previous version. Jack of all trades, not that bad, not that good.
Try to compare your spell with righteous might ( and its heightened version) as well as avatar.
Righteous might, more than avatar, is the perfect example how a spell which enhances combat capabilities has to work.
I don't think its too OP that it cant be tuned down.
- I think we shouldn't compare buff spells to battle forms since they can usually be used with each other. you could just cast heroism or divine power before you cast a battle form spell.
- I also think your underselling Heroism. It has alot of advantages over my divine power. It can be cast on others, gives bonuses to everything except damage, its viable as an out of combat buff with the 10 minute length and its only a level 3 spell compared to
the level 5 divine power which only affects attacks, damage and athletics.
- Martials will have to be level 14 before they gain access to this spell and at that point the spellcasters are casting mass haste
and Heroism +2.
- I knew quickened would be a sore point but it is a 5th level spell and i don't think they need to keep in line with 3rd level ones. Again haste can be cast on others at a lower slot and also allows you to move while my Divine Power only allows an extra strike meaning its only really useful for the warpriest or a late game cleric multiclass martial.
- I do think i will lower the Temp HP again to keep it under Righteous Might however.
The fact is that currently stuff like this does not exist because they got rid ( thanks god ) of hybrids.
Note that the haste part could be exploited by lvl 16 given the appropriate rune, but apart from that the spell should give a flat modifier instead of bonuses ( which are not given in any battleform but wild shape for obvious reasons ).
I mean, I would always choose your spell if I were any class ( even considering that by lvl 16 i could sacrifice a damaging rune for a hasten one, but I wouldn't ofc since it will be included in the spell ).
- Being able to cast/speak/manipulate
- Being able to access to any item ( potions, scrolls, kits, shield, etc... )
- Get extra advantages even with a low level slot ( and not the highest, which is balanced for the character current level ), which is +1 status in adjunct to the listed previous stuff compared to, for example, righteous might.
Let us compare the righteous might limits on a lvl 15 character
Attack
Quote: A special attack with a righteous armament version of your favored weapon, which is the only attack you can use. Your attack modifier with the special weapon is +21, and your damage bonus is +8 (or +6 for a ranged attack). If your attack modifier with your deity's favored weapon is higher, you can use it instead. You deal three of your weapon's normal damage dice, or three damage dice of one size larger if your weapon is a simple weapon with a d4 or d6 damage die. The weapon has one of the following properties that matches your deity's alignment: anarchic, axiomatic, holy, unholy. If your deity is true neutral, you instead deal an extra 1d6 precision damage. So, considering a lvl 5 spell of yours, a warpriest will have 15 (lvl) +5(str) +1(your spell)+4( proficiency) +2(weapon runes )= +27
compared to a +21 ( 26 if you use your deity favored one ) or a +28, if the character expends a lvl 8 spell ).
Defense
Quote: AC = 20 + your level. Ignore your armor's check penalty and Speed reduction. So, for example, let us consider a lvl 15 warpriest
AC= 10 (flat)+15( lvl )6 (plate, which is easily achieved through sentinel )+4(expert proficiency) +2 ( runes ) = 37. 38 with cantrip shield and 39 with raise shield action.
vs
20+15 = 35 ( by expending a higher slot, for example the heightened lvl 8 version you'll get 36 ). so, from 2 to 4 less armor.
Either flat AC and Attack are given for a specific reason.
Again i disagree, Battle form spells do not fill the same role as buff spells as both can be used at the same time so the argument that someone would choose one spell over the other seems pointless when you can cast both. Should we make this argument to the Devs about the Heroism spell? This spell is just a weaker heroism, a weaker 1st level false life and a weaker haste at a much higher level than all of them.
Martials would have to wait till level 14 to get 1 cast of this spell and level 16 to get 2. I would much rather have the speed Rune and cast
a higher level heroism on myself.
Maybe we can move the spell and heightened forms up by 1 so the spell comes out when mass haste is available and the +3 version is a level 10 spell?
Davido1000 wrote: Again i disagree, Battle form spells do not fill the same role as buff spells as both can be used at the same time so the argument that someone would choose one spell over the other seems pointless when you can cast both. Should we make this argument to the Devs about the Heroism spell? This spell is just a weaker heroism, a weaker 1st level false life and a weaker haste at a much higher level than all of them.
Martials would have to wait till level 14 to get 1 cast of this spell and level 16 to get 2. I would much rather have the speed Rune and cast
a higher level heroism on myself.
Maybe we can move the spell and heightened forms up by 1 so the spell comes out when mass haste is available and the +3 version is a level 10 spell?
It's always better than heroism when it comes to combat.
- Temporary HP
- Status bonus to weapon damage
- Haste included
Divine power
Quote: Round 1
Divine Power ( 2 actions )
Stride ( 1 action )
Round 2
You are done ( you get the extra action at the beginning of your round )
vs
Heroism
Quote: Round 1
Cast Haste ( 2 actions )
Stride ( 1 action )
Round 2
Cast Haste ( 2 actions ).
So you will be expending 2 rounds casting and find yourself using 2 spells per fight instead of one.
This leaving apart that the only way a cleric has to get haste is through multiclassing or from a specific deity ( tied to a specific favored weapon ).
You'd probably be surprised to find out that heroism is not that used ( because there are better spells, and it's not really worth the cost ), but if heroism would trade its skill/saves bonuses for status damage, haste and temporary hp well, it would be one of the best lvl 5 spell ever ( better than the current heroism or any battleform, even if you don't like the confrontation between the two of them ).
Apart from the heightened version ( I do agree that It could be increased even more ) and considering a character like a warpriest or another class with the divine tradition through a dedication, who would go for righteous might, or any other battleform, or heroism instead of Divine Power?
Divine power is far less useful for pure spellcasters as it gives bonuses to things that they don't use. That being weapon damage, athletics and an extra strike. I would much prefer Heroism or a battle form if i was a pure caster like a cloistered cleric, divine sorc or witch which are the only spellcasters that have access to this spell. Meaning the only spellcasters that this spell would be a prime choice for is the Warpriest or an endgame martial MC to get 1-4 casts a day.
Where are you getting the numbers for Heroism not being used when its generally considered the best buff spell in the game?
I think we will have to just agree to disagree on this as we seem to be divided in our game design philosophy. Thank you for your engagement.
Heroism has already been discussed even on these boards (I could ask you the same about the "generally considered" part ). leaving apart that being the best buff doesn't necessarily relate with "being the best choice for a spell of that level", and talking about spell slots is far from being the best choice for its level ( heightened or not ).
Apart from agreeing on disagreeing, my point was just to underline the logic behind battle forms and heroism, in terms of combat mechanics ( bonuses, required actions, targets, limits, etc... ) and similar stuff.
Shortly, why we are not going to see what they removed ( hybrid enhancing stuff which belittles martials ), but I also understands that it's a homebrew stuff.
This spell is definitely competing more vs. battle forms than it is competing vs. heroism, which can be cast before combat and is generally used on allies.
As far as vs. battle forms goes, it is about on par with any of them if you assume the caster is built for Striking. Compared to righteous might at 15th level:
Righteous Might (8th) ->
+28 to attack rolls
3d12+15+d6 damage
Lowers your AC sometimes
15 temp HP
Can't cast spells any more
This Spell (7th) ->
+28 to attack rolls (+5 Str, +19 proficiency, +2 item, +2 status)
3d12+9+2d6 damage (three dice, +5 Str, +2 weapon spec, +2 status)
Doesn't touch your AC
15 temp HP
Can cast spells
Quickened
So the tradeoff is about 2.5 damage for the ability to cast spells, possibly retaining better AC, and a free quickened. Plus this spell would only be heightened to 7th in this example. That seems like a very good deal for the people who would want to cast it (warpriests primarily).
This spell feels like a way to make warpriests feel a bit beefier, and I like that in concept. I think there's room for this spell to exist as a "personal battle-heroism", but it's a fine line. As you've written it, it feels to me like its probably doing a bit too much in a single casting. Maybe cutting the quickened or locking out spellcasting for the duration would be enough to bring it in line with other similar spells.
Perhaps make it a rage-like mechanic where you cant cast spells because you are too focused on keeping the power stable or chanting prayers? So something like this:
Divine Power — Spell 5
Evocation
Traditions Divine
Cast Two actions - Somatic, Verbal
Target self
Duration 1 minute
Calling upon the divine power of your patron, you imbue yourself with strength and skill in combat. You gain a +1 status bonus to attack rolls, weapon damage rolls and Athletics checks. You also gain 5 temporary Hit Points and the Quickened condition which you can use the extra action each round only for Strike actions.
Due to the strain on your mind and body you can't use actions with the concentrate trait apart from the Seek action. You can Dismiss the spell.
Heightened (7th) The status bonus increases to +2 and the temporary hit points you gain are 10.
Heightened (9th) The status bonus increases to +3 and the temporary hit points you gain are 15.
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