DM gave all our party mounts. I'm a Barbarian. Huge battle ensues revolving around mounted combat on our shiny new steeds, so I (not wanting to be ineffective for the session) do the one thing I'm good at and enter a rage. But... Command an animal has the concentrate trait. I can't use concentrate traits when in a rage. So my main class feature makes it so I can't move or do anything with the mount?
Am I missing something here?
The last edition have multiple archetypes like burn rider, mounted fury and mad dog that emphasised that barbarians are supposed to be really effective alongside (or mounted on) animals.
I don't have the moment of clarity feat. I don't want to retrain and lose out on my other feats to get it just to spend an action more than the rest of the party every turn spamming it to be able to move while raging, so I'm really hoping I've overlooked something really obvious here!
(I am new to second edition so I'm still learning all the rules)
You are not missing anything in the rules, though I'd like to think the GM hadn't noticed this without some warning to you as a player.
And you're right, Moment of Clarity + Command an Animal would kill your turns, so you shouldn't Rage (and definitely not Retrain), much like an Animal Instinct Barbarian can't Rage when they need to engage in ranged combat or how it feels when the baddie's immune to a Fighter's chosen Weapon Group. Sorry.
You're still a competent warrior, and for key battles, you may just have to dismount like many, perhaps most, cavalry have done throughout history.
The remount when Rage ends and race to the next battle (hopefully with a minute's lull to refresh.)
ETA: If it's an extended combat with lots of moving around on horses, it's unlikely you'd be able to maintain your Rage anyway, putting you in jeopardy when you reached your enemies.
What type of barbarian? Not that it makes a difference in the incompatibility RAW between rage and command an animal.
My though is that if it is important for plot and theme reasons to your campaign, you might houserule away the incompatibility. Just handwave that you can still use command an animal while raging.
But this makes sense for some instincts better than others. Spirit and Superstition wouldn't seem out of place at all. Animal and Dragon could probably be made to work until you fully transform. Giant might or might not look strange while riding (isn't there a feature that lets you change size... That would cause problems when riding something that you barely fit on normally). Fury instinct would be hit or miss. I guess it depends on how you play it. Worst case, you would end up making your mount hate you as you furiously whip it into doing what you want.
The only option by RAW is to take the Cavalier dedication and go into Impressive Mount, which allows your mount to stride once each turn without needing to command it. Obviously this does nothing for you right now if you're level one and requires you to invest entirely in your mount, so not ideal.
Giant might or might not look strange while riding (isn't there a feature that lets you change size... That would cause problems when riding something that you barely fit on normally).
Yeah. Giant's Stature. Also not compatible with a mount of size large. Since a mount has to be at least one size larger than its rider.
If I were to fix this without handwaving, I would add a class-exclusive skill feat for the Nature skill that adds the rage trait to the command an animal action. Then at least you are paying a small amount of character build for the ability. But nothing too expensive.
Maybe you could tie your horse to another PC's so that it follows like is normal for horses?
Obviously it can be done, the question is how would your GM arbitrate that?
Moment of Clarity would be an option here.
You're not missing anything, as written it's MoC or bust. This seems like a talk to your GM scenario, because there's really no good solution and if mounted combat is going to be a big deal you'll probably want to work something out with them.
Maybe you could tie your horse to another PC's so that it follows like is normal for horses?
Obviously it can be done, the question is how would your GM arbitrate that?
Not well. At least not from me. This sounds more like a pack animal trick than a battle-trained animal trick.
Most animals panic in battle. When combat begins, they become frightened 4 and fleeing as long as they’re frightened.
I wouldn't want to be riding the animal when it becomes panicked and I am too enraged to be able to control it.
Maybe you could tie your horse to another PC's so that it follows like is normal for horses?
Obviously it can be done, the question is how would your GM arbitrate that?Not well. At least not from me. This sounds more like a pack animal trick than a battle-trained animal trick.
Most animals panic in battle. When combat begins, they become frightened 4 and fleeing as long as they’re frightened.I wouldn't want to be riding the animal when it becomes panicked and I am too enraged to be able to control it.
Horses follow horses.
It's one reason they were relatively easy to domesticate.And I wasn't thinking in combat! That'd mess up both horses.
I mean to get from combat site to combat site to then dismount there for raging action. Otherwise I say just suck it up and don't rage. It's not the worst setback (assuming this isn't a horse-themed campaign!).
You are all missing the obvious solution here.
Get the Ride feat.
It says When you Command an Animal you’re mounted on to take a move action (such as Stride), you automatically succeed instead of needing to attempt a check
Problem mostly solved.
I mentioned this briefly in my Barbarian Guide.
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You are all missing the obvious solution here.
Get the Ride feat.It says When you Command an Animal you’re mounted on to take a move action (such as Stride), you automatically succeed instead of needing to attempt a check
Problem mostly solved.I mentioned this briefly in my Barbarian Guide.
How exactly does the Ride feat help you? Rage prevents you from using the action. It doesn't matter if the action no longer requires a check, when you can't take it at all.
Unfortunately Gortle, I don't think Ride would help. You can't use any action with the Concentrate trait while raging. Ride doesn't make it so you don't have to command an animal. It just means you don't have to roll a check. You are still using the Command an Animal action, so you couldn't do so while raging.
Edit: Ninja'd by 20 seconds.
To be fair, I thought originally that Ride would solve the issue, and almost posted to suggest it a few hours ago. Then I re-read both abilities and realized that it wouldn't do any good.
Maybe you could tie your horse to another PC's so that it follows like is normal for horses?
Obviously it can be done, the question is how would your GM arbitrate that?Not well. At least not from me. This sounds more like a pack animal trick than a battle-trained animal trick.
Most animals panic in battle. When combat begins, they become frightened 4 and fleeing as long as they’re frightened.I wouldn't want to be riding the animal when it becomes panicked and I am too enraged to be able to control it.
Warhorses and warponies are combat trained. They don’t become frightened or fleeing during encounters in this way.
Why would a battle-trained animal know less than a pack animal...?
Anyway, this sounds dumb to me. Like, I kind of get why Command An Animal has the Concentrate trait but I also don't think it really belongs there for all purposes, especially not this one — this seems like the kind of thing you could generally get across on instinct or even when addled, if everyone in your group agrees it's dumb.
Have a conversation with your group, anyway. Maybe you'll all decide it won't be a problem and/or that it's cooler to Command long enough to get into position, go feral, and jump into an on-foot struggle.
In lieu of a legitimate "in rules" (unless there is something I'm missing) method of getting around the issue, I'd say it's best to work with your GM on a house rule. Perhaps you train with your new mount enough to bridge the gap between your wild howling and the commands it usually knows? Maybe your steed is an unbroken stallion itself, and you are the first rider to meet it as an equal?
There are plenty of reasons I can think of for a raging barbarian to work in the saddle of a horse. That's the great thing about TTRPG's, you can work around just about anything in a satisfying manner.
Warhorses and warponies are combat trained. They don’t become frightened or fleeing during encounters in this way.Why would a battle-trained animal know less than a pack animal...?
It isn't that they know less, it is that they are trained differently.
A pack horse would be trained to follow a lead horse that they are attached to by a lead.
A war horse isn't. They are instead trained to not panic in battle.
A war horse attached to a lead horse would probably be rather confused, but would go along with it... until battle breaks out. Then the feeling of being constrained in their movements would likely cause them to panic. They would start pulling on the lead rope trying to escape what they perceive as a grapple that they are engaged in.
Unfortunately Gortle, I don't think Ride would help. You can't use any action with the Concentrate trait while raging. Ride doesn't make it so you don't have to command an animal. It just means you don't have to roll a check. You are still using the Command an Animal action, so you couldn't do so while raging.
Edit: Ninja'd by 20 seconds.
To be fair, I thought originally that Ride would solve the issue, and almost posted to suggest it a few hours ago. Then I re-read both abilities and realized that it wouldn't do any good.
Hmm.
Rage says You can't use actions with the concentrate trait
Ride says When you Command an Animal you’re mounted on to take a move action (such as Stride), you automatically succeed instead of needing to attempt a check
Ok. I see what you are saying. Well it makes sense in a loose language sort of way, the action still occurs. Technically it doesn't work.
So the solution is to have a mature animal companion as a mount, so they get one action a turn anyway. That is pretty step (2 class feats) and not a great solution anyway.
The actual solution seems to be accept that mounted barbaians don't work, which seems sensible on one level. Its just that mounted barbarians are classic. I'll be houseruling this one to work with the ride feat.
The DM says we're basically all getting the cavalier dedication and archetype feats for free as we level, so that means the animal companion will become mature.
He says that per rules I'll need to dismount if I want to move and rage still. He is being cagey about the details so I wouldn't be surprised if eventually the horses will end up being/becoming special in some way. Fingers crossed it's in a way I can use.
I can almost guarantee pathfinder Devs are planning a mad dog / mounted Barbarian feat or instinct at some point, I just wish they'd thought to have it in core or close to it.
For those asking, I'm dragon instinct but it's not built into my backstory more than "dragons are big and strong, I am big and strong too!". Other instincts looked weak compared to dragon, except giant.
I don't think there's a good answer in the rules.
I think the solution has to be sitting down and talking to him and explaining that Rage is basically your single most defining class feature. It's what makes a Barbarian a Barbarian and that this scenario kind of cripples your character.
See if you can work out either something you can do to mitigate the Concentration problem, an alternative reward instead of the Cavalier Dedication, or maybe even rebuilding into a different class.
Because other than something like that, Moment of Clarity and the one move per round from Impressive Mount are the only things RAW you can utilize.
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I think the answer here really is as simple as telling you that, no, if you want to ride the horse/mount you cannot be raging.
That certainly isn't ideal for the barbarian but it's no more unfair than the Rogue who is fighting a creature outside of the range or their ability to Sneak Attack, a Wizard who is dealing with anti-magic encounters, or any kind of illusionist dealing with mindless opponents.
You can't use your schtick in this circumstance, at least not without having to ditch your mount for the combat, and all things considered, it feels about right to me, losing full control of yourself while raging makes sense to me and riding a mount being something you need to actually concentrate on seems about as fair as anything else.
That said, I think we will eventually see Class Feat support for this in the future given how PF1 had Barbarians that not only got a mount and could ride it, but their mounts even benefitted from their own Rage feature.
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I think the answer here really is as simple as telling you that, no, if you want to ride the horse/mount you cannot be raging.
That certainly isn't ideal for the barbarian but it's no more unfair than the Rogue who is fighting a creature outside of the range or their ability to Sneak Attack, a Wizard who is dealing with anti-magic encounters, or any kind of illusionist dealing with mindless opponents.
You can't use your schtick in this circumstance, at least not without having to ditch your mount for the combat, and all things considered, it feels about right to me, losing full control of yourself while raging makes sense to me and riding a mount being something you need to actually concentrate on seems about as fair as anything else.
That said, I think we will eventually see Class Feat support for this in the future given how PF1 had Barbarians that not only got a mount and could ride it, but their mounts even benefitted from their own Rage feature.
This is true. Being without your rage for an encounter isn't the end of the world, since there are plenty of circumstances where other classes are out of their comfort zone.
This could be a problem however if the GM means to make these sorts of encounters normal for the campaign. Giving the group a free Archetype to support mounted combat suggests that this won't be a one off thing.
If that is the case, then you need to find some kind of accommodation that let's your character still work.
I think the answer here really is as simple as telling you that, no, if you want to ride the horse/mount you cannot be raging.
That certainly isn't ideal for the barbarian but it's no more unfair than the Rogue who is fighting a creature outside of the range or their ability to Sneak Attack, a Wizard who is dealing with anti-magic encounters, or any kind of illusionist dealing with mindless opponents.
You can't use your schtick in this circumstance, at least not without having to ditch your mount for the combat, and all things considered, it feels about right to me, losing full control of yourself while raging makes sense to me and riding a mount being something you need to actually concentrate on seems about as fair as anything else.
That said, I think we will eventually see Class Feat support for this in the future given how PF1 had Barbarians that not only got a mount and could ride it, but their mounts even benefitted from their own Rage feature.
Yup, this. It is less punishing than things some other classes have to deal with.
But yeah, just chat with the GM first they might be happy to make a simple exception if it is going to be frequent.
Another option is boosting your speed so when it comes to mounted combat you end up raging and use a mixture of the chase ability, charge and a high base movement speed to outrun mounted foes.
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I think the answer here really is as simple as telling you that, no, if you want to ride the horse/mount you cannot be raging.
That certainly isn't ideal for the barbarian but it's no more unfair than the Rogue who is fighting a creature outside of the range or their ability to Sneak Attack, a Wizard who is dealing with anti-magic encounters, or any kind of illusionist dealing with mindless opponents.
You can't use your schtick in this circumstance, at least not without having to ditch your mount for the combat, and all things considered, it feels about right to me, losing full control of yourself while raging makes sense to me and riding a mount being something you need to actually concentrate on seems about as fair as anything else.
That said, I think we will eventually see Class Feat support for this in the future given how PF1 had Barbarians that not only got a mount and could ride it, but their mounts even benefitted from their own Rage feature.
The entire campaign is based around riding these mounts, to the point the players are getting the Cavalier archetype for free. This isn't "a Rogue fighting a creature outside of their range", this is bringing a Rogue to a campaign where all of the enemies are elementals.
On the bright side this starts to work at level four... but it's gonna really suck before you get to level four. I really don't think it's unreasonable for the GM to just ignore the rage restriction for now so your character is functional in the campaign he wrote.
It a real shame the game doesn't support this as some of the most recent popular culture barbarians ie Dothraki are clearly horse barbarians.
Free archetype sort of works with Cavalier as you can get one move per turn out of your horse at level 4 even while riding. But if you are really being tactical on horse back a barbarian just doesn't work.
Yes making the Ride feat actually help or just ignoring the restriction is the best way to go for now.
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Coming from an equestrian family, I can safely say that talking isn’t necessary to command a horse. People can use vocal commands, but it is really all in the use of the reigns and legs presuming the horse has been trained.
However, for rules sake, what about taking sign language? Then I would presume you’re using manipulate in lieu of concentrate.
Edit: I’m referring to general riding not doing specific tricks such as dressage which use whistles and chirps or the like. None of these would be combat useful, though.
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Further, after you have experience, riding a horse ( or driving a car ) becomes an action you don't even think about. You just instinctively do it, with out it ever rising to the level of conscious thought.
Its that concentrate trait that is the problem.
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Further, after you have experience, riding a horse ( or driving a car ) becomes an action you don't even think about. You just instinctively do it, with out it ever rising to the level of conscious thought.
Its that concentrate trait that is the problem.
That’s why I brought up using sign language, but review of the skill feat says nothing about changing from the concentrate trait to manipulate. Since it’s about what RaW allows, that won’t work either.
Hopefully the OP’s GM will adjust or won’t have any combats requiring being mounted.
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That certainly isn't ideal for the barbarian but it's no more unfair than the Rogue who is fighting a creature outside of the range or their ability to Sneak Attack, a Wizard who is dealing with anti-magic encounters, or any kind of illusionist dealing with mindless opponents.
Sneak attack does not have a range limit, anti-magic encounters as described aren't really a thing in this edition*, and most illusions work on mindless creatures just fine**.
dream council
hallucination
mask of terror
message
nightmare
paranoia
phantasmal calamity
phantasmal killer
phantasmal treasure
phantom pain
project image
weird
Some of these don't even directly target the immune creature and so may well work anyways.
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Sneak attack does not have a range limit, anti-magic encounters as described aren't really a thing in this edition*, and most illusions work on mindless creatures just fine
There are creatures simmune to precision damage, it is why everyone and their mom warns folks about playing rogues in the slithering's first chapter.
There are a number of creatures that have limited or extensive magic immunity, golems being the most well known, wisps being another.
Sneak attack does not have a range limit, anti-magic encounters as described aren't really a thing in this edition*, and most illusions work on mindless creatures just fine**.
Not all Rogue's are built for ranged sneak damage (most aren't in my limited experience), there are plenty of encounters that hamstring spell caster's either through direct immunity to magic or some special rule, like Golem Anti-Magic. The rarity of anti-magic for Player's has little bearing on what they can run into.
No real comment about illusion's and mindless creatures. That is correct.
Themetricsystem was just pointing out that there are circumstances where any given build will be out of their element. This just happens to be one (of the few to be honest) for the Barbarian. Though really they are only operating without Rage. While that is a large chunk of their damage, as well as many of their feats, nothing is stopping them from just operating as a "normal" character until they can dismount and rage effectively.
Actually if they took Fast Movement at 4th and grabbed a Cheetah's Elixer or Quicksilver Mutagen, they could probably keep up with the rest of the party on Horseback quite nicely depending on their starting speed. Horses are only 40 foot move base after all, and they'll only be doing a double move or Gallop each turn. The only limiter there is how long their rage lasts.
Actually if they took Fast Movement at 4th and grabbed a Cheetah's Elixer or Quicksilver Mutagen, they could probably keep up with the rest of the party on Horseback quite nicely depending on their starting speed. Horses are only 40 foot move base after all, and they'll only be doing a double move or Gallop each turn. The only limiter there is how long their rage lasts.
Honestly its not even that hard. Longstrider and Sudden Charge will get them there pretty easily. Fleet helps. You are already faster than a mount.
But that brings up how simply the game does mounted combat in general. How mounts only get two action per turn.
Mounts should be critical but are not. Some classes can just run faster.
Doesn't magic immunity only extend to area and direct target effects?
Can't help but think many illusions would continue to work just fine even in that instance. Getting a golem to chase after an illusory creature while the party escapes, for example.
Aside from oozes, are there really that many creatures immune to precise damage?
Doesn't magic immunity only extend to area and direct target effects?
Can't help but think many illusions would continue to work just fine even in that instance. Getting a golem to chase after an illusory creature while the party escapes, for example.
Aside from oozes, are there really that many creatures immune to precise damage?
Off the top of my head; Swarms, anything Incorporeal and oozes are most of them I'd say. There are probably a few others out there that I'm not aware of.
As to magic immunity, that depends on whether you are being targeted by the spell. A magically immune creature could be fooled by an illusionary wall for example, but could not be targeted by hallucination or other direct spells. They could be stopped by a Wall of Stone, as the stone left behind is mundane, but they would walk through a Wall of Fire unscathed, unless they had a particular weakness to fire like a Flesh Golem.
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The rarity of anti-magic for Player's has little bearing on what they can run into.
I mean it kind of does. The scenario in which the wizard has no valid spells they can cast requires both a specific subset of enemies and a very specific set of spells prepared by the wizard at the same time and is something the wizard can deal with by preparing different spells in the future if that's going to be a recurring problem.
"What if you fight a golem and you only have blasting spells" is a pretty radically different beast than a player realizing that a major feature of the campaign is fundamentally incompatible with the character they've made.
Your rogue in a campaign full of oozes comparison is more apt, but that would be another scenario where it would probably be a good idea to talk to your GM and "haha sucks to be you" isn't a particularly helpful answer there either.
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The rarity of anti-magic for Player's has little bearing on what they can run into.I mean it kind of does. The scenario in which the wizard has no valid spells they can cast requires both a specific subset of enemies and a very specific set of spells prepared by the wizard at the same time and is something the wizard can deal with by preparing different spells in the future if that's going to be a recurring problem.
"What if you fight a golem and you only have blasting spells" is a pretty radically different beast than a player realizing that a major feature of the campaign is fundamentally incompatible with the character they've made.
Your rogue in a campaign full of oozes comparison is more apt, but that would be another scenario where it would probably be a good idea to talk to your GM and "haha sucks to be you" isn't a particularly helpful answer there either.
Oh, I wasn't saying that it's reasonable for a party to run into a series of anti-magic combat's in a string with no forewarning or anything like that. All that was meant was that the rarity of anti-magic effects for player access has little bearing on whether they have a chance at fighting an opponent with access to them.
Neither the GM or adventure designers have to dance to the same tune as the players. So a spellcaster could be put in a position where they are less effective, or totally countered, at any time. Same as a rogue coming up against a bunch of creatures with immunity to precision damage or that can't be snuck up on. An encounter against a Wraith or a bunch of swarms could be behind any given dungeon door.
For many characters it doesn't take as much as a straight up immunity to deny them their preferred tactics or abilities. Even just a creature with a high Fire resistance or Reflex save can make a Wizard who leans too heavily on Fireball for example feel that they are hamstrung, in a similar way as a Barbarian forced to refrain from Raging would feel in a mounted combat.
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While this is wholly in the realm of homebrew, we took a shot at something that maybe your GM might be interested in. It's got some feat buy in that may not mesh well with the Cavalier archetype, but we think it should make for an interesting barbarian!