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Pathfinder 2 did a lot of good for the bard class, but one of its bigger flaws is that the best bard cantrip didn't make it in (despite being in the 5e SRD). So, in order to rectify that, I present:
Vicious Mockery — Cantrip 1
Cantrip, Emotion, Enchantment, Linguistic, Mental
Traditions Occult
Cast Two actions - Verbal
Range 30 feet; Targets 1 creature
Saving throw Will; Duration 1 round
You unleash a string of enchantment-laden insults at the target, dealing mental damage equal to 1d4 plus your spellcasting modifier. The target attempts a basic Will save, but on a failure it also takes a -1 status penalty to all attacks and offensive DCs until the end of its next turn, unless those attacks include you as a target or in its area.
Heightened (+1) The damage increases by 1d4.
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I figure this should be reasonably balanced. The damage is pretty standard cantrip fare - having a basic save makes it better than having an attack roll, but on the other hand it's quite limited in what it can affect by the Emotion and Linguistic traits. On the plus side, it doesn't have somatic components (but still takes two actions to cast), and has an interesting debuff component that the target can avoid by attacking the caster.
I love vicious mockery and it definitely needs a place in pathfinder but no offensive cantrips have 1d*+spell mod as damage and have an effect pop off on just a failed save.
Perhaps this:
Vicious Mockery — Cantrip 1
Cantrip, Emotion, Enchantment, Linguistic, Mental
Traditions Occult
Cast Two actions - Verbal
Range 30 feet; Targets 1 creature
Saving throw Will; Duration 1 round
You unleash a string of enchantment-laden insults at the target, dealing 1d4 mental damage. The target attempts a basic Will save, but on a failure it also takes a -1 status penalty to its next attack.
Heightened (+1) The damage increases by 1d4.
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The flavour of this spell needs to exist in some form. It is just too much fun.
Davido1000 wrote: I love vicious mockery and it definitely needs a place in pathfinder but no offensive cantrips have 1d*+spell mod as damage and have an effect pop off on just a failed save.
I see your point, but I think it compares fine to e.g. Electric Arc and Telekinetic Projectile.
Electric Arc: Pros: two targets. Cons: a damage type that pretty much nothing takes extra damage from.
Telekinetic Projectile: Pros: higher damage, flexible damage type. Cons: Attack roll.
Compared to these two, I think Vicious Mockery seems fine. The damage to a single target is on par with Electric Arc, but you only hit one target, and the minor debuff is balanced by the Emotion, Mental, and especially Linguistic traits which makes it useless against a large number of creatures. And even against those creatures it works on, the target can avoid the debuff by just attacking you, which makes it kind of risky unless you have a nice meat shield between you and the target.
I could see reducing the damage to be on par with Daze, but in that case I think the debuff needs to be stronger (perhaps -2 instead). Daze has a longer range, and isn't limited by language.
As a side note, I believe most other cantrips are slightly underpowered - for example, the only time I can recall casting Produce Water (Produce Flame switched to Water) on my elemental sorcerer was when fighting a clay golem, and it didn't really do much good on account of it having a higher level and me missing. The only reason I have that is that it's a mandatory part of my bloodline. Here's how I'd change them:
Chill touch: Add the Enfeebled on a regular failure as well.
Daze: Maybe increase the base damage or scaling a little, but given that Stun is such a powerful effect I'm not sure. It also has range going for it.
Acid splash: Add the persistent damage on a hit (and have it double on a crit). Clarify that it works just like any other splash attack, i.e. still dealing splash damage on a miss.
Produce flame: Should probably increase the base damage to 1d6, or deal a lesser amount of persistent damage on a regular hit.
Ray of Frost: has an extreme range going for it already, but I'd probably have it give a -5 penalty to Speed on a hit.
Tanglefoot: Should use a save instead, with a -5 speed penalty on a success.
Disrupt Undead: Already deals decent damage, but maybe have the Enfeebled work on a hit as well.
Divine Lance: Should use your own alignment if you don't have a deity (oracles or sorcerers). Maybe inflict a condition like Stupefied?
We cant really judge an entire spell from 1 wiffed usage of it, the druid in my game loves produce flame haha.
EA and TP are definitely outliers in strength and i was trying to keep it more inline with the rest. I didn't notice the linguistic trait and that is definitely a gamechanger as its only viable on humanoids.
I would still keep to the consistency of an effect but no stat damage to keep it inline but maybe make it just have the frightened 1 condition to make it a castable intimidate?
Davido1000 wrote: I love vicious mockery and it definitely needs a place in pathfinder but no offensive cantrips have 1d*+spell mod as damage and have an effect pop off on just a failed save.
Perhaps this:
Vicious Mockery — Cantrip 1
Cantrip, Emotion, Enchantment, Linguistic, Mental
Traditions Occult
Cast Two actions - Verbal
Range 30 feet; Targets 1 creature
Saving throw Will; Duration 1 round
You unleash a string of enchantment-laden insults at the target, dealing 1d4 mental damage. The target attempts a basic Will save, but on a failure it also takes a -1 status penalty to its next attack.
Heightened (+1) The damage increases by 1d4.
Better, but imo still overpower.
The best comparison would be probably made with the Daze spell
Quote:
Cantrip, Enchantment, Mental, Nonlethal
Cast Two Actions somatic, verbal
Range 60 feet; Targets 1 creature
Saving Throw Will; Duration 1 round
You cloud the target's mind and daze it with a mental jolt. The jolt deals mental damage equal to your spellcasting ability modifier; the target must attempt a basic Will save. If the target critically fails the save, it is also stunned 1.
Heightened (+2) The damage increases by 1d6.
The linguistic trait vicious mockery has is indeed limiting, I have to admit.
Still, apart from that and the halved range ( which is not necessarily a thing, especially given how small are AP maps and rooms ), it's better in any way
1) No somatic component ( no AoO trigger ). This one is Huge.
2) 1d4+modifier. Heightened +1 (1d4) ( almost double the daze damage )
3) Effect on a failure ( while daze gives it just on a critical failure. Even if the daze one is better, isn't going to occur if not in rare cases )
I suggest 2 modifies:
1) Damage scaling like Daze Stat + Heightened 2 ( 1d6 )
2) Failure -1 on the next attack ( as also proposed Davido ). Critical Failure -1 on all attacks until the end of the enemy turn.
I agree that the -1 status penalty on attacks on a failure is too good for a cantrip. At that point it's comparable to the Evil Eye hex and way better than either Daze or Telekinetic Projectile as written.
Ask yourself under what conditions you use Telekinetic Projectile or Daze instead of this spell. Will you re-write all the other cantrips so that the're as good as the one your proposing? Even the cantrips that rely on spell attack rolls?
Currently Vicious Mockery does more damage than your modified Daze, and its rider is on a Failure instead of a Crit Failure. The 'Linguistic' trait is a major disadvantage, but I would always use it instead of Daze on enemies that I knew spoke Common.
Think carefully before you homebrew aggro mechanics. IME they're hard to keep track of at the table, and they're either non-factors or a horrible mistake on the aggro-er's part, with no middle ground.
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HumbleGamer wrote:
I suggest 2 modifies:
1) Damage scaling like Daze Stat + Heightened 2 ( 1d6 )
2) Failure -1 on the next attack ( as also proposed Davido ). Critical Failure -1 on all attacks until the end of the enemy turn. I disagree on the range comment. I dont think we should be using AP trends as the go to on how common range bands are. I think a spell caster being in easy melee range in this system is very much a danger. i do however agree with everything else you said so perhaps something like this:
Vicious Mockery — Cantrip 1
Cantrip, Emotion, Enchantment, Linguistic, Mental
Traditions Occult
Cast Two actions - Verbal
Range 30 feet; Targets 1 creature
Saving throw Will; Duration 1 round
You unleash a string of enchantment-laden insults at the target, dealing 1d4 mental damage. The target attempts a basic Will save.
Failure Target suffers a -1 status penalty to its next attack.
Critical Failure Target suffers a -1 status penalty to all of its attacks until the end of its turn.
Heightened (+2) The damage increases by 1d4.
Yeah ( I am probably getting too used to AP). Wanted to also say the same dmg progression but somehow wrote 1d6.
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