Three chuuls attacked the group and one grabbed the rogue. Can the druid hit two of them with flame strike, being the chuuls positioned as shown in the pic?
In my opinion he can't, unless he desn't care burning his friend. And yet aiming an exact spot during a combat is rather difficult, even if his friend wasn't in the way I don't think the strike could affect two creatures without burning the boat and half the pier in the process.
Am I too strict?
he can easily hit the bottom 2 by aiming to the bottom right of the screen, in what way is he forced to shoot the warf? i really don't even understand how your aiming if you think he has no choice but to hit his friend or the warf very very clearly he can just hit the 2 bottom monsters if he wants.
i'd also like to ask how his ally is sharing a square with 1 of the monsters??? they are only large size and would incure squeezing penalties if it was even possible for them to share a square. perhaps you should go read grapple as well if your pulling them into the grapplers square because that doesn't happen in pathfinder.
Right, he is showing them that way to show that he is grappled, but yes, the rogue should have still been in the square he started in.
But yes, he could easily hit the bottom 2 and miss the rogue.
Grab just allows a creature to initiate a Grapple as a free action, so this is going to be governed by Grapple rules. And as far as your specific situation, it depends on "where and how exactly the GM has ruled the rogue is being grappled" is going to determine whether he gets hit by the Flame Strike.
For example, if you've ruled that the Chuul grab/grapples the rogue, but does not pick him up, and the Rogue(0) stays adjacent to the Chuul (X) like this:
0
XX
XX
Then it is possible with careful positioning of the Flame Strike, you could (and should) rule that the Rogue is outside of the Chuul's space, so the Flame Strike hits the bottom 2 Chuuls and misses the Rogue.
But if you've ruled that the Chuul grab/grapples the rogue, and picks him up and transfers him to his mandibles/tentacles (Move Action) and is now trying to use Paralytic Tentacles ability to paralyze/eat the Rogue, and the Rogue is now inside the Chuul's space like this:
0X
XX
Then I don't see how the Rogue wouldn't be hit by the Flame Strike because he's sharing the same space as the Chuul (The Rogue is in direct contact with the Chuul's face, at this point in time), and he would have to make a Reflex save with penalties for being grappled. Tbh, if this is the case, the Druid would be better off casting Liberating Command first.
But if you've ruled that the Chuul grab/grapples the rogue, and picks him up and transfers him to his mandibles/tentacles (Move Action) and is now trying to use Paralytic Tentacles ability to paralyze/eat the Rogue, and the Rogue is now inside the Chuul's space like this:
0X
XXThen I don't see how the Rogue wouldn't be hit by the Flame Strike because he's sharing the same space as the Chuul (The Rogue is in direct contact with the Chuul's face, at this point in time), and he would have to make a Reflex save with penalties for being grappled. Tbh, if this is the case, the Druid would be better off casting Liberating Command first.
This. And the gnome was 41 of 96 HP, so he'd probably died if hit by the FS.
This. And the gnome was 41 of 96 HP, so he'd probably had died if hit by the FS.
But if you've ruled that the Chuul grab/grapples the rogue, and picks him up and transfers him to his mandibles/tentacles (Move Action) and is now trying to use Paralytic Tentacles ability to paralyze/eat the Rogue, and the Rogue is now inside the Chuul's space like this:
0X
XXThen I don't see how the Rogue wouldn't be hit by the Flame Strike because he's sharing the same space as the Chuul (The Rogue is in direct contact with the Chuul's face, at this point in time), and he would have to make a Reflex save with penalties for being grappled. Tbh, if this is the case, the Druid would be better off casting Liberating Command first.
Then that's perfectly reasonable to rule it that way imo. I would've done the same thing.
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1) You can't draw someone in your square unless you have shallow whole or some similar ability. A Chuul tentacles are an appendage as any other. They keep the grabbed creature in an adjacent square, they don't draw it in the Chuul squares.
2) Rogue, the gnome has evasion, and he can use it even if he is grappled. Unless he was paralyzed by the Chuul venom, he had a chance to avoid all damage.
3) There is no rule forcing you to hit all the body of a creature to deal it damage with an area spell. Flame strike has a 10' radius. The druid can put the center point 5' below the Chuul grappling the rouge and get the two bottom Chuuls without a problem. If the center point is on the median line of that Chuul he will even avoid hitting the boat.
You could also flamestrike the boat and hit all three chuuls and the rogue, if you were so inclined...
Grappling in Pathfinder is more the two opponents keeping each other in check at the shoulder than a sweaty embrace on the dusty floor.
- whatever this means for succubi in a grapple^^ -
Thanks to anyone who helped
coming on the rules forum to ask if your house rules are real rules seems kind of silly. none of your rule decisions for this battle seem to be raw they are all house rules. the rogue should not share a space with the monster, you can aim flame strike wherever the caster wants not wherever the GM tells him to.
you can easily flame strike the top two or the bottom two without hitting the rogue since he should be to the left of the monster and not inside him. just because the flame strike(or any other aoe) hits a monster does not mean all his squares take damage(and therefore things in those squares also get it) that is not how it works.
grappling does not pull people into your square and even if the monster has swallow hole so he is now sharing a square he still wouldn't get hit because the monster would give him total cover. sorry but you are wrong, pretty much everything you said and did is wrong by the rules.
I'm here to learn, if I wanted to do as I wish I wouldn't be here asking for advice would I?
No need to be hostile.
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The Chuuls are large, yes? The Flamestrike can be aimed so the beam does not strike our smaller Rogue friend. The Chuul's extend into the air in a 4x4 block. So the Flamestrike can be dropped 5 ft above the Rogue and scorch the tops off the Chuuls.
Per Grapple RAW, you do not share the same space with a grappled target, both grapplers are treated as if they're adjacent to one another. However, if the creature has a Swallow Whole or similar ability, then you're treated as sharing the same space.
In this particular instance, the Chuul has a special ability "Paralyzing Tentacles" that throws a wrench in things.
Paralytic Tentacles (Ex)
A chuul can transfer a grappled victim from a claw to its tentacles as a move action. The tentacles grapple with the same strength as the claw but deal no damage, instead exuding a paralytic secretion. Anyone held in the tentacles must succeed on a DC 19 Fortitude save each round on the chuul’s turn or be paralyzed for 6 rounds. The save DC is Constitution-based. While held in the tentacles, paralyzed or not, a victim automatically takes 1d8+7 points of damage each round from the creature’s mandibles.
The Chuul's anatomy is what throws a wrench in things, at least for my interpretation of what rules should be applicable here, because its tentacles are on its face and are kinda like a "beard" that surround the creature's mandibles. So although you're not being swallowed whole per se, you are being "eaten in pieces" when they use this ability. Picture of a Chuul for reference
So if you rule that this is a Grapple only and NOT Swallow Whole scenario, you would rule that the Rogue is still adjacent to the creature even while being eaten, and therefore the spell can affect both Chuuls without affecting the Rogue.
But if you rule that the Paralytic Tentacles ability is a "Swallow Whole or similar ability" scenario, you could rule that since the Rogue is wrapped up in the tentacles and being devoured by the mandibles, that the Swallow Whole rules would apply, because the Rogue is being actively eaten. The Chuul did perform a standard action to Grab/Grapple and then used a Move Action to perform a special ability to begin devouring the Rogue, after all.
Swallow Whole (Ex)If a creature with this special attack begins its turn with an opponent grappled in its mouth (see Grab), it can attempt a new combat maneuver check (as though attempting to pin the opponent). If it succeeds, it swallows its prey, and the opponent takes bite damage. Unless otherwise noted, the opponent can be up to one size category Smaller than the swallowing creature. Being swallowed causes a creature to take damage each round. The amount and type of damage varies and is given in the creature’s statistics. A swallowed creature keeps the grappled condition, while the creature that did the swallowing does not. A swallowed creature can try to cut its way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon (the amount of cutting damage required to get free is equal to 1/10 the creature’s total hit points), or it can just try to escape the grapple. The Armor Class of the interior of a creature that swallows whole is normally 10 + 1/2 its natural armor bonus, with no modifiers for size or Dexterity. If a swallowed creature cuts its way out, the swallowing creature cannot use swallow whole again until the damage is healed. If the swallowed creature escapes the grapple, success puts it back in the attacker’s mouth, where it may be bitten or swallowed again.
Format: swallow whole (5d6 acid damage, AC 15, 18 hp); Location: Special Attacks.
The Rogue is in the creature's mouth, and is taking bite damage each round, but not being Swallowed Whole -- but rather being "eaten in pieces"; each time the rogue fails a CMB check, he is remaining "grappled in its mouth and receiving bite damage" similar to Swallowed Whole rules.
Conversely, there is no mistake whatsoever that the Rogue is indeed being grappled.
So honestly, this is up to the GM about which rules apply. I think either situation is correct. I think you should talk this over with your players, arrive at a consensus of which rules should apply now and in future similar situations (with GM being final arbiter), and then move forward.
@Ryze Kuja, if you are going to do away with the grid with respect to grappling, why not do away with the grid with respect to Flame Strike as well? Place the characters on the map, overlapping in two dimensions if need be then check which creature is in the area of the spell, no?
- I am not saying that doing away with part of the rules when said part doesn't fit the situation well is a bad thing, I am saying it is a good thing that could be done a bit further for even better results -
@Ryze Kuja, if you are going to do away with the grid with respect to grappling, why not do away with the grid with respect to Flame Strike as well? Place the characters on the map, overlapping in two dimensions if need be then check which creature is in the area of the spell, no?
- I am not saying that doing away with part of the rules when said part doesn't fit the situation well is a bad thing, I am saying it is a good thing that could be done a bit further for even better results -
Tbh, this is the primary reason for "why" you have a GM, to arbitrate the rules in times like these when two rules are conflicting.
There's no doubt at all that the Rogue is being grappled, so per the grappling rules, the rogue is adjacent and wouldn't be in range of the Flame Strike. Conversely, the Rogue is also being "eaten in pieces", and satisfies every condition for Swallow Whole except for the Paralyzing Tentacles ability being specifically called out as Swallow Whole.
So, GM gets to call it how he sees it in this one.
As far as doing away with the Grid Section, this happens all the time in my games, because we play 3D. Every character has access to some form of flight lvl 5+, be it via spell, class ability, or a magic item/enchant, and Pathfinder has nearly zero guidance for 3D combat. So, in my games, the grid section is entirely theoretical, and pretty much irrelevant by lvl 8.